Mr. Camara, thanks for your response. With all due respect to you, I do not
think that the sequence of events went the way that you narrated. Correct me
if I am wrong, but I think Jaiteh sent a mail to G_L at 13:01 admonishing
Prof. Assan for his mail. Then according to the mail Prof. Assan submitted
to G_L, originating from Jaiteh to the List Managers and Assan, Jaiteh did
not privately admonish Assan until 13:11; ten minutes later. I might be
missing something here. But from my vantage point, Jaiteh took it upon
himself to protest for Kebba Jobe and threatened to 'delist' Assan.

I am no computer wiz but I can figure enough to know that you cannot censor
messages as they come in from active subscribers. What you can do as List
Managers, is what Jaiteh did to Assan. You will apply your so-called rules
inconsistently hoping that people will lose their tempers and voluntarily
'delist' themselves or say things that we might all regret.

I deliberately try to fight my battles and respond to people when they
offend me on G_L. I hope you understand that I am not trying to get you to
'delist' anyone on my behalf. I dealt with Alieu Keita and I can adequately
deal with Kebba Jobe. But is it out of place for me to ask where Jaiteh's or
the List Managers' sense of justice was when Kebba Jobe attacked me
personally without substantiating what he was saying? Do not get me wrong.
People can call me vulgar. But they have to make it stick. Show my
vulgarity. Show my selfishness or my absurdity. If they cannot do that, that
is vicious personal attacks (lies) in my book. These are attacks that also
deserve the attention of List Managers. Or is Jaiteh going to tell us that
Kebba Jobe went to him whining about Assan's attacks?

Let us apply the rules consistently. Did you follow your rules here by
waiting for Kebba Jobe to complain? Did you follow that up be asking Assan
to state his case before he was asked to apologize? Perhaps I am reading the
wrong rules here. The rules you sent deals with dispute resolution when we
have a complaining subscriber. I could not find anything that deals with the
kind of language List Management would tolerate. I also did not see there
provisions dealing with people that 'offend' G_L 'apologizing' to G_L.
Again, maybe I am missing something here. But what Jaiteh purported to do,
was admonish Assan for language Jaiteh thinks is offensive to List
Management. Jaiteh also thinks that the language is offensive to all of us
and therefore asked Assan to apologize to all of us. I am narrating what
Jaiteh purported to do. But we all know that the apology was meant for Kebba
Jobe. Please quote us the specific provisions that say that language
offensive to (Jaiteh) List Management and G_L is an 'expel-able offense'
even where  the person the rhetoric affected, did not complain?

You see, rules are very funny things. They can always come back to bite
unexpected victims. Camara, I have a lot of respect for List Management and
the service you are provide for the Gambia. Because of that I will not get
into it with you about Ebrima Ceesay as of now. As I said before, I do not
know the full story from Ebrima's side. I was just giving my own deductions.
If you feel that nothing unfair was done to Ebrima by you, that is your
prerogative. I am sticking to my view that List Management's handling of the
'Alieu Keita' incident has something to do with Ebrima's withdrawal. I will
take your advise and contact him privately to ask him why he is silent.
Thanks again for your contributions.
KB



>From: Momodou Camara <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Attn: List Managers
>Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 00:09:11 +0200
>
>Mr. Dampha and Gambia-l,
>Usually the list managers warn people privately if they feel that a member
>should be warned and this is exactly what Malanding had done. He sent a
>copy of
>the mail for the list managers to the subscriber in question in order to
>show
>that he is not doing any thing behind his back.
>
>Every email sent to the Gambia-l by subscribers are instantly received by
>all
>members subscribed on Gambia-l and on the web-interface without the
>interference of Listmanagers so what harm can an APRC sympatiser
>listmanager
>do? Perhaph I need to be educated on that.
>
>Remember that Gambia-l is an open forum and anyone with an access to the
>internet and an e-mail account can be a member. List managers are not here
>to
>double check on any subscriber who sends a request of joining the List. We
>do
>not see the list as a political forum and for only APRC, UDP, NRP or PDOIS?
>
>Knowing that Gambians are generally not democratic by nature, we should use
>this service to its maximum in order to learn to be democratic. This is one
>of
>the reasons that the list managers are giving everyone the chance to be
>heard
>without removing anyone just because they have violated once in a while one
>of
>the rules by "Personal attacks and name calling directed to individuals,
>groups
>and/or organizations".
>
>I am sure you already know that any list manager can remove any subscriber
>from
>the list at any time but that would defeat the purpose of the Gambia-L.
>
>On the issue of Ebrima Ceesay joining Gambia-l peepers, I think you should
>write to him and ask him his reason. I have not seen him sign off from the
>list
>yet.
>
>Hamjatta, you can call us self appointed Ayatollahs but you should also
>remember that Gambia-L is not a club but a service that is open to ALL
>Gambians
>and those interested in Gambian related issues.
>
>I hope I made myself clear even though I am not using The Queen of
>England's
>english. Danish is may daily language of communication:-)
>
>I am re-posting the Gambia-L Rules below, once again for everyone and hope
>that
>we all try our best in order to make good use of Gambia-l.
>
>Momodou Camara
>
>  -------------------------------Start of Gambia-L Rules
>-----------------------
>
>  GAMBIA-L RULES
>
>  1.     PREAMBLE
>
>  Gambia-L mailing list is for Gambians and friends of The Gambia to
>discuss
>  Gambia related issues. The list is a free forum for discussion, debate
>and the
>  sharing of information on and about The Gambia.
>
>  The precursor to Gambia-L was a mailing list started in 1994, following
>the
>  overthrow of the Jawara government.  The rapid growth of the Internet
>resulted
>  in more Gambians getting online and consequently an increase in the
>number of
>  subscribers to the original mail list.  This, together with a number of
>  factors, warranted a much more powerful and flexible list management
>system.
>  Fortunately, the University of Washington in Seattle provided this
>facility,
>  resulting in the launch of Gambia-L on January 31, 1996.
>
>  GAMBIA-L is aimed providing Gambians and those interested in Gambian and
>  related issues, a means to communicate with each other, and exchange
>ideas and
>  information of common interest.  In the process, it is hoped that a
>spirit of
>  cooperation, of exchange of ideas, of healthy debate and dialogue for the
>  National good will be cultivated. True, ours might not be one of the
>biggest
>  lists, but we certainly can make it one of the very best in cyberspace.
>
>  To attain the excellence we aspire to, GAMBIA-L will makes maximum use of
>it's
>  #1 asset: subscribers.  Thus, management of the list is shared by a
>number of
>  volunteers who will be rotated as and when needed.  Further, the list is
>  configured such that it will be easy to use, but also prevent it's abuse.
>
>  Subscription to GAMBIA-L is open, and free to all, but conditional upon
>  approval by designated list owners.  Subscribers are expected to maintain
>a
>  mature and responsible tone in the contributions they send to the list.
>It is
>  hoped that our individual sense of responsibility, fairness, and decency,
>  coupled with the community policing of the list will help prevent, and
>contain
>  outbreaks of poor taste in our debates.
>
>  The usefulness of Gambia-L depends on the individual and collective
>efforts of
>  it's subscribers.  Toward this end, the following rules were developed to
>  ensure the existence of a healthy atmosphere for the exchange of ideas,
>and
>  dialogue on Gambia-L.  The rules will also provide a basis for enforcing
>  acceptable standards of behaviour on the list.  Subscribers violating any
>of
>  the Gambia-L rules risk being expelled from the list in accordance with
>the
>  procedures spelt out below.
>
>  2.     THE RULES
>
>  1.  Postings on Gambia-L should not contain extreme, insulting, or
>offensive
>  language, pornographic material, notices of virus hoaxes, and chain
>letters.
>
>  2.  Personal attacks and name calling directed to individuals, groups
>and/or
>  organizations are not permitted.
>
>  3.  Requests for subscriptions should be sent in private to Gambia-L
>managers
>
>  4.  Personal mail should be sent privately, and not to the list
>
>  5.  Any subscriber or subscribers can object to a behaviour or offensive
>use
>of  language on the list.
>
>  6.  A subscriber can complain about an offending posting by sending mail
>to
>the offender, and Gambia-L managers stating the objection, and sufficiently
>identifying the offending posting.
>
>  7a.  The accused subscriber must, within 72 hours, respond to the
>complaint
>  with an apology and promise not to repeat the offence, or refute the
>  allegations against him or her.
>
>  7b.  In that there is a disagreement about the gravity of the allegation,
>  Gambia-L List Managers will vote on whether the accused is guilty or not.
>
>  7c.  If the offender is found by the majority of List Managers to be
>guilty of
>  the allegations, he or she must apologize to the person offended by his
>or her
>  posting within 72 hours.
>
>
>7d. Failure to respond to an alleged offence or apologize after 3
>working days will result in removal from the list.
>
>
>8. An expelled subscriber may apply to rejoin the list three months after
>his
>or her expulsion.
>
>9. Applications to rejoin the list must be approved by a simple majority of
>LIST MANAGERS.
>
>  ----------------  End of Gambia-L Rules -------------------------------
>
>
>On 6 Apr 2001, at 14:42, Dampha Kebba wrote:
>
> > First of all, Prof. Assan, I beg you like I did to other subscribers
>before, not
> > to 'delist' your self. Then, the forces of evil will win. Let the
>Managers
> > 'delist' you if they think that is the right thing to do. Again, please
> > reconsider your decision.
> >
> > For the List Managers (or their self-appointed spokesmen), I am sending
>this
> > message in order for us to avoid a maelstrom on G_L. Your unfair
>handling of the
> > 'Alieu Keita' saga might have cost this forum the invaluable
>contributions
> > Ebrima Ceesay's Sources were making to this struggle. I cannot speak for
>Ebrima
> > and I do not profess to know his real reason for not posting to G_L
>anymore. But
> > judging from the timing of Ebrima's departure and the way 'Alieu Keita'
>was
> > handled, one can easily argue that the List Managers' behavior
>contributed to
> > why Ebrima left.
> >
> > This might have been inadvertent on the side of the List Managers; i.e.
>it
> > was nobody's wish that we lose Ebrima and his Sources. On the other
>hand, it
> > might have been a deliberate ploy on the part of closet Yaya supporters
>to try
> > and silence the brother. Well, if the latter is the case, let me save
>you some
> > time and effort. Trust me that it is nobody's interest that I be
>alienated the
> > way Ebrima was. I do not plan to unilaterally 'delist' myself; neither
>do I plan
> > to allow myself to be 'delisted' without a fight. I will go further than
>that
> > and say that I will not sit silent and let List Managers pick on people
>that
> > support my views.
> >
> > What is going on here? Is it now more acceptable to List Managers for
>people to
> > come here and tell vicious and unsubstantiated lies about people. When
>Jobe was
> > calling me names and not substantiating his rhetoric, did I hear List
>Managers
> > counseling him to stop lying about me? Why do you always have to jump on
>people
> > that are attacking Yaya supporters back and giving them a dose of their
>own
> > medicine? Why did you have to pick on Prof. Assan to remind us of
>decorum in
> > this forum? Are you trying to silence the brother? We all know the
>rules. If you
> > feel that someone has violated the rules, have the guts to step to the
>plate and
> > discipline that individual. But you would not do that because you know
>that once
> > you start applying the rules, you have to apply them uniformly. So,
>instead you
> > use these kinds of subtle tactics, hoping that people will lose their
>tempers
> > and voluntarily 'delist' themselves. Give us a break. In my book LIES
>are worst
> > than whatever Prof. Assan has said. List Managers condone lies from APRC
>but are
> > eager to jump on people that want to jump into the gutter with APRC. If
>jumping
> > into the gutter is the offense here, then admonish both parties. Not
>just the
> > people that are attacking APRC.
> >
> > I beg the pardon of List Managers that do not subscribe to Jaiteh's
>ideas
> > and also did not partake in the dirty tricks that were employed on
>Ebrima
> > Ceesay. I was just using the phrase 'List Managers' for ease of
>reference.
> > As for Jaiteh, I frankly do not get you. Is Lalo (who has been kidnapped
>and
> > falsely accused by this illegal government), your brother? This is not a
> > rhetorical question. I really want to know, because it might help me
>understand
> > some of the positions you take on G_L. KB
> >
>
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