Hello, Habib, you know as sorry as I am for hurting and offending you,
it seems we've had this discussion regarding moon sighting before, and
I distinctly remember you mentioning  "indians / Pakistanis" before
and how they don't want to use calculations, etc.  It's too bad that I
can't find the message, or else I'd share it, but to my recollection,
this is the second time you've mentioned this group, specifically, in
regard to their opposition to the use of astronomical calculations in
determining the begin and end of Islamic months.  My question is, why?
 Surely, they are not the only Muslims who do not agree with following
soley astronomical calculations in determining the start of Ramadan
and the Eid, for example.  A couple years ago, before ISNA changed
thier position, they used the criteria of a confirmed local sighting
within North America, to determine the start of Ramadan, and the
Eid-ul-fitr.  Surely, there weren't only people from India and
Pakistan on he committee who made that decision.  Also, one of the
main proponents for the use of an astronomically calculated global
calendar is the webmaster of www.moonsighting.com who I believe is
Pakistani.

It would be one thing if this was the first time you'd mentioned "some
Indo-Pak Muslims" in relation to this subject, but why mention them
twice?  And when you talk about their unwillingness, at the advent of
loud speakers, mechanical slaughtering devices, etc., to accept these
things because "they weren't from the Sunnah", I read that in a
condescending "why don't they just get with the times" kinda way.
Because you obviously didn't mean it in a positive way, you were
making an argument for why people should use astronomical
calculations, and you were saying how they didn't, and used them as an
example of "those who don't use astronomical calculations" after you'd
explained what a wonderful thing this was and how we all should use
it.

And you know, my disagreement with you was not so much on the moon
sighitng issue, but it was with how you spoke so generally about a
whole ethnic group of people.  And as far as "following the sharia so
strictly", if a blind person, or anyone else for that matter, could
not sight the moon, then they would follow the community, or some
other trustworthy person!  And why even bring up blindness!?  Only
because you're angry with me, and you don't agree with what I'm
saying, so you have to bring up blindness.  At any rate, I'll try to
answer your question more fully.  For me, as a blind Muslim, I
normally check sites such as www.moonsighting.com, or
www.crescentwatch.org.  That's just toname two sites that I check.  I
took a course in Maliki fiqh (which I follow almost exclusively in
matters of Islamic law), and in Maliki fiqh, as I was taught, we don't
use astronomical calculations *solely* to determine the begin of
Islamic months, though it can be used to aid in determining
sightability.  The farthest distance that one can take a sighting
from, from what I've learned, is about 4,000 miles.  Thus, a solely
calculated start of an Islamic month, or following a sighting from
halfway around the world, would not be a valid "sighting" not just for
*me*, but for anyone who follows that particular opinion.  If the
Maliki madhhab holds this opinion (a school of fiqh which is not
predominant in India nor in Pakistan), then how can you generalize
this reluctance to use calculations to the Indo Pak Muslims?

That is my question.  As I said, I apologize for hurting your feelings
or offending you, and this is unfortunate that this had to happen
right at the commencement of Ramadan, but I'm not going to apologize
for holding a different opinion than you, and I'm not going to
apologize for feeling that you did make a generalization about a group
of people, even if you only felt you were using it as an example, and
only if you said only "some" of them do this.  Why even mention them
at all?

At any rate, I'm done with this discussion!

Ginny



On 9/12/07, [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>  You are welcome Suntou.
> Ramadan Kareem to you and your family
> Jabou
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SUNTOU TOURAY <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 3:23 am
> Subject: Re: first ramadam to be on thursday
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jabou and Habib ,thanks for the enlighten discussions .God bless.
>
> Habib Ghanim <[log in to unmask]> wrote:  The following table lists the
> Gregorian
> dates of New Year, the beginning of Ramadan, the date of Eid al-Fitr and Eid
> al-Adha, according to the Ummal-Qura.
>
>
>
>
>
> Year
>
> 1 Muharram
>
> 1 Ramadan
>
> 1 Shawwal
>
> 10 Dhul-Hijja
>
>
> 1425
>
> 21 Feb 2004 Sa
>
> 15 Oct 2004 Fr
>
> Nov 2004
>
> 21 Jan 2005 Fr
>
>
> 1426
>
> 10 Feb 2005 Th
>
> 4 Oct 2005 Tu
>
> 3 Nov 2005
>
> 10 Jan 2006Tu
>
>
> 1427
>
> 31 Jan 2006 Tu
>
> 24 Sep 2006 Su
>
> 23 Oct 2006
>
> 31 Dec 2006 Su
>
>
> 1428
>
> 20 Jan 2007 Sa
>
> 13 Sep 2007 Th
>
> 13 Oct 2007
>
> 20 Dec 2007 Th
>
>
> 1429
>
> 10 Jan 2008 Th
>
> 1 Sep 2008 Mo
>
> 1 Oct 2008
>
> 8 Dec 2008 Mo
>
>
> 1430
>
> 29 Dec 2008 Mo
>
> 22 Aug 2009
>
> 20 Sep 2009
>
> 27 Nov 2009 Fr
>
>
> 1431
>
> 18 Dec 2009 Fr
>
> 11 Aug 2010
>
> 10 Sep 2010
>
> 16 Nov 2010Tu
> plan your holidays now without headaches
>
> > Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 00:08:29 -0400> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject: Re:
> first ramadam to be on thursday> To: [log in to unmask]> > >
> Brother
> Habib,> > Thanks.> As I mentioned, I have no problem with the choice of
> Makkah
> as the point of > reference for the moon sightings. Infact, I think that it
> is
> something > befitting that should have been done long ago because it is a
> point
> of reference for > the Ummah.> The slaughtering en masse also makes sense
> because the pronouncement of > Allah's (SWT) name is what matters there so
> no
> major departures from the sunnah.> Loud speakers make sense as aids to
> better
> conveyance of what is being said.> Therefore, opposition to these above
> mentioned items is a bit fanatical.> However, when it comes to the actual
> sighting of the moon with the naked > eye, that is the sunnah of the Prophet
> and
> even the Qu'ran mentions that. > Deciding to depend on mathematical and
> astronomical calculations alone without > seeing the actual moon
>  crescent is another matter altogether. Innovation I say.> We already know
> that
> in the lunar calendar we follow in Islam, some months > are 30 days and some
> are
> 29, and the Prophet told us that during his time. > During Ramadan, actually
> sighting the moon is what determines if we fast 29 days > or 30 days.> I
> personally think that it is a dangerous departure.> Instead, what needed to
> be
> done was to have the Ummah World-wide defer to > the Makkans whenever they
> inform us that the moon has been sighted over there > with the naked eye and
> go
> with that as opposed to going with calculations. > I remember that during
> the
> time that the late Serigne Modou Lamin Bah was > imam of Banjul, if the moon
> was
> sighted in Makkah, he would make the decision to > go along with that
> schedule.>
> > May Allah guide the Ummah to the straight path and protect us from Bi'da.>
> May
> He inspire and help us to keep our faith pure.> > Please remember us, the
> rest
> of our compatriots and the Ummah in your >
>  prayers.> > wassalaam,> Jabou> > In a message dated 9/11/2007 10:46:51 P.M.
> Central Daylight Time, > [log in to unmask] writes:> > Balal na la Ahha> yes
> indeed sister jabou> for several months since jan 2007 all the muslim
> scholars
> that are > astronomers and mathematicians met with some religious scholars
> in
> europe , south asia > and in the usa plus experts from Africa ( capetown and
> cairo) to finalize > this method> > the key is very simple and strategic one
> location was selected and which > city better than mekkah> so when the new
> moon
> is born ( the know the exact time to the seconds ) in > mekkah area alone
> before
> sunset then we start the new lunar month the > following day but when the
> new
> moon is born after sunset then the next day is the > first day- reasoning is
> that since each month is exactly 29.5 (and half day) > so it means some
> months
> will be 30 days and some 29 only> there is no half day - so it makes sense
> and
> yes it has been accepted by > the scholars> > >
>  remember when the microphone or loud speakers fist came about abot 60 years
> >
> ago many indo pak muslims also refused to use them because it was not used
> in >
> the time of the prophet (pbuh) and not sunnah > well with technonogy and
> science
> advances Imams now use these loudspeakers > to give khutbas to big crowds of
> worshippers so all can hear him deliver > his speech. and there is no debate
> on
> this matter any more with the cell phones > and land lines -telephones have
> sms
> /ims , cameras and even videos now to > almost mini computers > > we have
> the
> same issues with mechanical slaughter of chickens versus hand > slaughter -
> now
> machine slaughtered chickens are allowed as long as they are > supervised
> properly to avoid mistakes and the tasmiah is said by the muslim >
> supervisors
> during the process> > a classic example used was that during the prophets
> time
> people performed > pilgrimage to mekkah on horses and camels now we us
> airoplanes and cars and > boats. > > best regards
>  to y'all in the south and have a blessed month of Ramadan> Hajj Habib> > >
> > >
> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:35:50 -0400> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: >
> first ramadam to be on thursday> To: [log in to unmask]> > Habib,>
> > >
> Balal na la, balal ma ahhah.> > Astronomical calculations instead of >
> actually
> sighting the moon? I have no issues with the rest of the Islamic World >
> going
> along with the Makkans sighting of the moon as the start and end of >
> Ramadan,
> but is the new standard of going with astronomical calculations sunnah?> > >
> Jabou> > > > -----Original Message-----> From: Habib Ghanim > > To:
> [log in to unmask]> Sent: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 8:21 pm> > Subject: Re:
> first ramadam to be on thursday> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks sister > Jabou >
> thank God the whole universe this year starts on the same day ie 13 th >
> sept
> and > will celebrate eid on 13 th october 2007> from now on we will all >
> noy
> look for the new cresent moon as the new global > standard
>  will use makkah > as the target for the whole world and now based on >
> astronomical and > mathematical calculations only > we know when eid will
> fall
> for 5 years now without > complains ( except the > bangladashis and indo
> pakistanis) inshallah this is > a good move to unify the > ummah> > balal ma
> ahhah > may we meet next years > ramadan in good health inshallah> habib
> Diab
> ghanim> > > > > Date: Tue, 11 > Sep 2007 20:01:34 -0400> From:
> [log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: > first ramadam to > be on thursday> To:
> [log in to unmask]>
> > Ramadaan > Mubarak.> May > Allah (SWT) accept our fasting and forgive us
> our
> sins.> > Jabou > Joh> > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----> From:
> SUNTOU
> TOURAY > > > To: [log in to unmask]> Sent: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 > 1:19
> pm>
> > Subject: first ramadam to be on thursday> > > > > > > > > > > the main > >
> islamic news chanel in U.k announce that ramadan will comence on > thursday
> the
> > > 13th of september.> i wish every body a
>  blessed ramadan. i am sure baba and > some > sanyang kunda > folks will be
> happy that we will wait for another day > to start > the fast .not >
> forgeting
> the darboe kunda crew .saloum,haruna and > lj darboe > .God bless ,guys.>
> suntou.> > >
> ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤>
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