Edie, what you didn't make clear is where you stand with the reveal books of God. what religion you follow if any. because if you talk in general terms, we cannot find any way forward. i write from a perspective of a Muslim. if you believe in the validity and truthfulness of the Quran or the bible then, that is the starting point for your quest for clarity. what others say and do shouldn't matter to you. the quran is translated in English with commentaries. the bible likewise. the sayings of the prophet Muhammad is also translated in English. many people accept islam's teachings without discussing with any muslim. they only read the quran. some people also read the bible to be convince. don't worry about me, i am enjoying the exchange. 
  what our people believe or say about the Arabs shouldn't be of any problem.
  with masoud, this is a serious conversation. if you find it funny, even more interesting. 
  one thing i would like make clear is that, WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BLAME THE SATAN FOR OUR ERRORS OR SINS. WE ARE GIVEN A WILL-POWER. AN INTERNAL WARNING SYSTEM THAT TELL US WHEN WE ARE ERRING.
  the Satan is around. god only warns us about his existence and his manipulations. if we decided to invite him into our life's by doings thing that pleases him ,it is our choice.
  we are all adults. we know when we are making mistakes.
  i frimly believe that many understood the context i put the examples in so i don't need to go over them.
  

Haruna Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
  
Suntou, you are a very funny man. I just want you to know that.

[God is not doing any research on us.] Suntou.

How do you know that???

[he already new what you haruna will do from when your were a toddler to 
when you die even before that.] Suntou.

And yet She tests me if I will do exactly what She knew I would do. Then 
She destroys her own creation just to take inventory of what I had done from 
birth to death to evaluate her own hypotheses.

I guess we are prototypes of what She really intended to create on account 
of out genetic uniquenesses.

[Edie claims that he believe in God but he is confuse about certain things.] 
Suntou.

Me too. Masoud. But I'm not confused about divine research.

[The Satan blames man for his fall from grace and he is doing all he can for 
us too to incur the rapt of our creator.] Suntou.

Sounds like Shaitan's personal problem doesn't it?? And who created 
Shaitan??? I won't be bothered by Shaitan. I got my own problems.

[it's like the Mandingo saying ,bonoto kalafi anyun lella. a loser always 
wish for more losers.] Suntou.

Misery loves company.

[the Satan knows God very well. that is why when man sins he confess to not 
having any thing to do such a person. The Satan's problem is arrogance and 
pride.] Suntou.

Again Suntou, it sounds like Shaitan's personal problems to me.

[all man has to do is obey the commandments. the blue prints for our way to 
God is stated in his commandments. but since God knew what every man is going 
to do, we are only fulfilling a that knowledge not changing it or altering 
it.] Suntou.

Exactly. I obey the ten commandments of Moussa. But God/Allah is still 
conducting research on me for her own purposes. I obey the ten commandments 
because my parents taught me, and because they make sense for harmonious 
co-existence with my fellow man. I don't do it because I am a subject of God/Allah's 
research. For I am not aware of divine process there-in.

[we decide through our actions were our final destiny lies.] Suntou.

A final destiny that was pre-destined and chosen for us. How do you know I 
wouldn't like to choose another destiny different from Heaven or Hell???

[if you take God's words to be just fables, well and good, if you take them 
seriously again well and good.] Suntou.

Focus Suntou. You are digressing. We are not talking about God/Allah's words 
simply because people place their own interpretations on such. What we want 
to know is whether God/Allah is conducting research on us from your 
impression that She created us, created Shaitan, evicted us from Janna because we 
mis-behaved, led astray by Shaitan, placed us on earth to test us further, will 
recall us for judgement and inventory, will either place us in Hell or Heaven, 
continue to monitor us. What I wanna know is when will the research end????

[the message is clear. that is do good and give God his dues and you will 
attain eternal bliss.] Suntou.

Speak for yourself. Eternal bliss = research ad-infinitum. I look forward 
eagerly to the yield of such perpetual research.

[the basic requirement from us is to know God in the correct way, conduct 
the basic worship and live with him in mind.] Suntou.

Yes. And She will determine if we have done exactly what She had ordained.

[if that is too difficult to comprehend then, we may analyse our respective 
field of expertise and see who is wrong.] Suntou.

That wouldn't be necessary. It is not about who is wrong or right when it 
comes to divinity. It is about whether you have God/Allah in you.

[i will take Baba galeh here for instance, he is a great bloke, and 
intelligent fellow and highly qualified human being. yet he didn't say, i am bless 
with intelligence let me relax in Farafeni and my intelligence will guide me. 
he worked hard in school. he knew the field he is most capable of and he 
directed his energy on that path. he is already with a masters degree and has 
worked for high profile organisations. isn't that enough endeavour? to him no, he 
is now pursuing a doctorate degree. why is Baba doing all that? is it easy 
attaining a masters degree? no. how many hours do one has to put in to get such 
a high level education.? now coming to our other brother Lamin J Darboe. he 
is a very intelligent brother whose intelligence was well known before he 
left the Gambia. he attain the highest level of law studies in the u.s. he is a 
barrister. but did Mr Darboe just accept his intelligence and sit at home? he 
worked hard for all he achieve. likewise many brothers and
sisters study the things that interest them. God did not tell us to do those 
studies. we knew it will help us in our future careers. we want the best in 
life.] Suntou.

Suntou, have you bothered to ask Galleh and JDAM why they are doing what 
they do???? And what does that have to do with God/Allah conducting research on 
them unawares????


[In our every day life, God is present with us in his knowledge. he is not 
dictating to us what to do. he send us our constitution and guide, his words 
through a man from among us. this man deliver the message of God. just like any 
speaker, we are entitle to say, what a load of rubbish or what a waste of 
time you are.
if one wants to understand the message of God, you take time and analyse his 
messages in the books containing them, if you still think the messages are 
vake, then consult the experts in that field, just like we consult legal 
advisers, accountants, coaches, teachers, doctors, etc. we cannot have an excuse 
in the hereafter.] Suntou.

You are all over the place. Suntou, are you now wanting to rephrase your 
supposition that God/Allah evicted from heaven because Shaitan enticed us into 
evil so we can continue to be tested here on earth for the later reckoning for 
inventory sakes to continue being subjects of research in heaven or hell as 
will be determined by God/Allah????

[God told people in the Quran, " won't you ponder over the message i reveal 
to you?"] Suntou.

I did. And I continue to do that.

[He also told us to look into our own creation, there is a lesson for those 
who think. the anatomy of man is full of what amaze us every single day. the 
Satan is only there to distract us. we as men let him have control over us, we 
let him rule us. the Satan has his own kingdom. he rule over the jinns and 
men who obey him. he gave his followers things that they should have to wait 
for.] Suntou.

And God/Allah created us, Saitan, and all the jinns.

[the confusion over the messengers is all man's determination to live the 
way he deem fit. a close example is when we have elected members representing us 
in government. we expect this people to do what we voted them to do.] 
Suntou.

Forget the messengers and the representatives of govt. we voted for or will 
vote for. What does that have to do with God/Allah??? It seems to me these 
folk have their own deamons and personal problems they must account for. That is 
why we prosecute them here on earth before they answer to their creator for 
the other side of double jeopardy.

[but this men later becomes more powerful than us. they rather tell us what 
we should do not the other way round. they make laws that restrict our rights, 
they lock us up and enjoy our tax revenue. yet we feel this people should be 
listening to us. we normally tell them, next election , we will not vote for 
you.] Suntou.

And whose faults are you sharing?? I hope you don't think those are 
God/Allah's faults.

[As for God ,the day he will ask us to give account, there will be no next 
time.] Suntou.

Advice: Don't wait for the day of divine judgement. Judge on earth and 
forgive or punish. Then let God/Allah do what She wills.

[this is why it is important that we don't make life more complicated than 
it is. we all Believe in God. But we need to believe the correct way. we need 
to prove that we believe by doing the bare minimum required of us. if you are 
Muslims, pray the five daily prayers, fast during Ramadan, go for hajj in you 
are capable, give zakat when you have the wealth. and firmly believe in The 
uniqueness and oneness of god without any partner or lookalike, without any 
concept that we are all gods or any thing like that.] Suntou.

The five pillars of Islam. Eemaan. I told you you are funny Suntou. The 
moment I look away, you are right back where you began. I gotta watch yew.

[i will now continue on the holy men's issue. the marabouts, the seriegns, 
the chernos.] Suntou.

I am not interested. They have their personal problems and deamons to deal 
with.
Masoud. MQJGDT. Darbo. Al Mu'umin.






Haruna Darbo wrote:
In other words God/Allah is conducting research on his creation. Ergo, we 
are only significant to her and NOT ourselves. What success are we working 
toward ag
now coming to one of our brother, Lamin J Darboe, he is also a high 
intelligent pain?????

I think brother Sidibeh is unto something Suntou. The Shaitan/devil is the 
conflicts within Ourselves and not a countervailing force of divine research.

Haruna. I just remembered the landscape project is not quite complete. My 
son has brought two key points to my attention. One is divine, and the other 
is 
process. I shall share them with you my friends under appropriate topic.


In a message dated 5/6/2008 5:47:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
[log in to unmask] writes:

Brother Edie, if you are following me, i am taking a sequence. i am coming 
to the questions you asked.
what is imperative is that we understand our relationship with god and then 
with the Satan. You don't need to worry about the temptations of the Satan 
if 
you fully understand what God expects of you. The reality of the state of 
the human being is such that, we are given a freedom to choose between good 
and 
evil. that is part of our privilege creation. since you are using practical 
examples to explain our responsibilities as humans, i will do likewise to 
decode other issues.

Mr sidibe, we all know that nothings comes that free, we work hard for our 
success. suppose you work in a factory that manufacture mobile phones. your 
boss told you that i trust you that you will not steal any phone. and he fix 
some cameras to monitor you whilst you work. this cameras cover every angle 
of 
the work place. but you know unless some thing major happens your boss will 
not check the camera records. you start to steal some phones once in a 
while. 
your boss never caught you but your actions are on tape.
you work for that company until you are retired. your boss then plan a send 
off for you. he never knew what bad things you have done.he trusted you to 
do 
what is right with all the temptation to steal few phones. 
similarly, God's decision to let the devil tempt us is a test brother Edie. 
that test is the measure of our determination to obey him or obey our 
nemesis 
the devil. we cannot just be created to obey god, without any test, that 
will not make us any different from other animals.
the test is the key for our success or failure in the hereafter. just like 
we 
are given exams in schools or universities.
the point you stated concerning " no one will go to hell" is a concept that 
the nation of Islam preaches. but the reality is that ,hell is a place for 
punishment and cleansing. we should all pray that God forbid us from 
entering 
into it.
men like pol pot,Mobutu, HITLER COMMITTED ACTS WHICH ARE horrible yet no one 
has punished them for their actions, do you believe that those men will not 
get judged by their creator? 
as Muslims we believe that hell is a test for all believers. those who obey 
the commandments of GOD will be blessed with paradise and others with hell. 
but the decision to either punish or bless lies only in god's hand. the 
creation of the devil or Satan is part of test. he is needed to test the 
obedience 
and promise of man. all that the devil tempt men can be substitute with what 
is allowed by god. for instance, instead of adultery one can marry. instead 
of consuming alcohol one can drink juice or water. etc. i will continue 
later. 
the real issue here is why and how men give their life to the Satan, be it 
in the name of arts and creativity, or entertainment,wars,wealth,fame and 
over 
zealousity. we shall take a sequence.thanks



since you are using practi

Edie Sidibeh wrote:
Thank you again Mr.Touray for your clarification on the issue of faith. 
However sir, you did not answer my question but pondering on the same old 
story I 
have heard over and over again. What I am asking is the reason why God take 
us out of the Garden to earth? also as why should God let satan to exist if 
He/She did not Obey His will? God says that, everything on earth is an 
example 
of that we will have in heaven. 

Taking that to consideration, When swomeone works for a company for certain 
period and at the end does not want to Obey the company's regulations 
disagreeing with the owners and the owners have no other choice than sending 
Him/her 
packing, should the company be mandated to paying him continuously for life 
or should it be for certain period? Again God says before you worship me, 
you 
should "try" to know me first. 

Again, knowing someone or somebody those not come in a silver plate but 
asking a clarity about him and why he does certain thing that does not 
motivate 
you to follow what he/she is preaching concerning your interest. Some people 
will be critical if one will asked certain question regarding God, some will 
tell that God doesn't want you to asked many questions but to believe Him. 
Of 
course I believe in God as well as the prophets but the stories that 
preachers said are those that are confusing, as such, if God took us out of 
the 
Garden because we are sinful, why will He take us back while we are not 
clean? 

Again, my stupid logic told me that, GOD GAVE US THE SENSES WE ARE USING TO 
THINK FEEL TOUCH SEE AND HEAR. These are things that we can use to know what 
is right and wrong, therefore, why do we need Satan to influence us WHILE 
THE 
BRAIN IS THERE TO ASSIST OUR SENSES? If something is term wrong it therefore 
satanic but anything good is Godly, in this way who will take responsibility 
if something goes wrong hence Satan is more powerful than we are. Therefore, 

everybody should go to heaven because we are powerless to resist things we 
cannot see feel or touch and hear.

That is why God said between me and you no one will go to hell, because He 
knows that we are our own Satan for that matter He said only between you and 
your fellow human-being will take you to hell.

Again thanks for your time.














/Brother Edie, you are a very humble person. We are all students in this 
global village. Be proud with what you know and express it so that others 
can 
learn from you. The topic has been expanded. We shall include every thing 
relevant here. Our learned brothers are a bit miserly, they don't easily 
part with 
knowledge. Haruna is one educated brother.

Coming to the real issue of our relationship as human beings with the Devil 
or Satan. i will put it in a story form but it is how the scholars of Islam 
explained it.

Long before man was created ,a being was among the angels. Angels don't 
disobey the commands of God. They are created that way. The duties assigned 
to is 
done to perfection and they engage in the glorification of God all their 
life's. Among the Angels was the Devil or Satan or Jinn. He was created from 
Fire. He served among the Angels ,at one point rose to be among the 
leadership. 
What causes a high ranking being among the Angels to be banished to 
oblivion? God in his infinite plans, started creating our ancestor Adam. As 
Muslims 
we believe that God created Adam with his own hands. when Adam was laying in 
a 
form of clay or mud. the Angels will be wondering what being God is 
creating. The Satan started to be jealous of Adam has he lay in a lifeless 
form. It 
is reported that, The Satan usually point its finger at Adam's Tummy saying 
" 
i don't know what is this but if any thing his tummy will be a big 
temptation 
for him". to this many scholars said, the Satan's words proof true against 
us as humans, our quest for livelihood make us do many horrendous things. 
all 
we pursue in life is related to our happiness and comfort. from thief's to 
murderer.

When Adam was completed to the human form, God then created a soul. The soul 
is not from God. The soul is created. Then Adam's soul is breath into him. 
Then God authorised the Angels and Satan to prostrate to Adam. God created 
us 
with honour and respect. To this request the Angels fall down and 
prostrated. 
But the Satan refused.
He disobeyed the command of God. This is a serious issue but the Satan was 
ready to face any consequences. He was asked, why did you refuse to obey the 
command of God? his answer, which is similar to what many human beings say 
to 
day is " i am better than him, you created me from fire and him from clay". 
God told the Satan ," i know things you don't know". but the Satan was 
adamant. It refuse to bodge. He sealed his faith. What is the difference 
between 
committing a sin and falling in a state of disbelief? to commit a sin one 
knowingly do an act that he is forbidden from doing. to commit disbelief or 
kuffur, one denies the the validity of there being any wrong in his or her 
action. 
he/she don't belief the commands are reasonable and valid. this is disbelief.
an example, God command Muslims not to commit fornication and adultery. we 
as humans have many temptations. one way or the other, you find yourself 
committing fornication. you accepts that it is wrong but you followed your 
desire 
and commit a major sin in Islam which has a stipulated punishment in here 
and 
the hereafter. but still you do it. That is a sin.
but if you don't belief that fornication is a sin and that why should it be 
a sin? it is a relationship between two consenting adult, it is unreasonable 
for God to regard it a sin, then you have disbelief and disregard God's 
commandments and his validity and existence.

What the devil did was the later. He told God, i am better than Adam 
,meaning human. i am made of fire, still coming to the discrimination issue. 
the 
statement of the devil is thus, you God made a mistake. you were irrational 
and 
unjust to tell me to bow down to an inferior creation of yours. whom he 
thought don't deserve any honour from him.
God then asked him the Satan, what do you want? i reward you now all the 
past deeds you have done or later? he opted for a condition that He the 
Satan 
live till dooms day. that wish of him was granted. Before parting he made a 
promise to God. That is " i will make all the offspring of Adam, the man who 
is 
responsible for my banishment to disobey you" .God replied ,you can only 
make 
those who listen to you disobey me.
this is the condition we are in Edie. God never abandon us as humans. he 
through out our existence have send men among us with his message, his 
guidance 
and word. 
what is important for us as people to realise is that, God has given us a 
brain. that set us apart from all other creatures. we can differentiate what 
is 
good and what is not depending on our state of mind. we can take time to 
read the books containing the words of God, we can take time and asked those 
who 
spend their time learning about God and the way to him. this is all our 
choice. but let no one mistake the words of God's punishment for disobeying 
him. 
there is a hell fire and there is paradise. there is a day of judgement. yes 
we may not be able to do acts that will guarantee us paradise but obeying 
God's commandment is an indication that we held him high and respect his 
words. 
i will continue later brother Edie. thanks a lot. 

Edie Sidibeh wrote:
Thanks again Suntu, 

I am not doing this to offend anyone but to clear my doubt on certain issue 

=== message truncated ===

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface
at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html

To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l
To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to:
[log in to unmask]
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤