Hello, Momodou, the issue seems to be, giving sweeping idictments to a
whole group of people, and I don't think it matters too much who is
doing it, whether it's the "colonial masters" or white people, or
African-Americans, etc.

     What I was trying to say, and it wasn't necessarily directed at
you, was that it's wrong to make sweeping generalizations about a
whole group of people, and being a member of said group, or being
black, doesn't give one the right or excuse to do that.

     It's possible that in a misunderstanding or in a feeling of
cultural superiority, the colonial writers that you quoted, made the
conclusion that Gambians and by extension Africans were dishonest. 
Not sure if that made any sense, sorry.

     Ginny



On 9/1/05, Mo Baldeh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Ginny,
> 
> I know you're not black, but that's not the issue. I have no doubt that
> Cynthia can give you a good answer as to why she made an indictment of
> Africans. Or why in other discussions she made similar sweeping statements
> against Gambians.
> 
> I think she is intelligent enough to know that not all Africans lie just as
> not all African-Americans abuse drugs and shoot down their fellow
> African-Americans.
> 
> Needless to say, my previous statement was not an endorsement of her view.
> 
> Momodou.
> 
> 
> Ginny Quick <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hello, Momodou, you said:
> 
> Cynthia,
> 
> I was astounded by your remark. If you're not a black person then
> please go ahead and repeat what our colonial oppressors had said about
> us, Africans.
> Repeating it will not hurt more than it already did.
> 
> However, if you are a black person whose ancestors may have been sold
> into slavery in exchange for a bottle of cheap liquor, then I
> perfectly understand
> where you are coming from.
> 
> So does being black give the right for one to generalize Africans?
> Why is that OK? Shouldn't it be wrong to generalize either way?
> Shouldn't it be wrong to continue to perpetaute the stereotype that
> "Africans are dishonest" no matter what color you are? I mean, not
> all Africans had something to do with the slave trade. So why should
> being black be any excuse for villifying a whole group of people as
> dishonest, and thereby giving in to the colonial view of Africans?
> 
> While it might be understandably painful for African-Americans to
> think that their African counterparts during the slave trade had
> anything to do with their enslavement, turning around and villifying
> all Africans as generally dishonest is not right either.
> 
> It's like me saying that all sighted people are ignorant of blind
> people, just because of the way some sighted people treat me.
> 
> BTW, I'm not black, so take my comments for what they are worth.
> 
> Ginny
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/1/05, Mo Baldeh wrote:
> > Cynthia,
> >
> > I was astounded by your remark. If you're not a black person then please
> go
> > ahead and repeat what our colonial oppressors had said about us,
> Africans.
> > Repeating it will not hurt more than it already did.
> >
> > However, if you are a black person whose ancestors may have been sold
> into
> > slavery in exchange for a bottle of cheap liquor, then I perfectly
> > understand where you are coming from.
> >
> > Momodou.
> >
> > Cynthia Daniels wrote:
> > "... the African, as the author knows him, is the personification of
> > untruth; that is he never tells the truth for truth's sake, even in the
> > simple matter of the position of a town or the distance thereto, but,
> > like those who are to be beaten with few stripes, he knows not the depth
> of
> > his iniquity from our point of view.
> >
> > This part is interesting. I sometimes find myself trying to find the true
> > meaning of what is being said by Africans.
> >
> > Cynthia
> >
> >
> >
> > Mo Baldeh wrote: Omar,
> >
> > I endorse your view that most of the errors were committed by the
> colonial
> > writers. Although I also think that some oral traditions are prone to
> > hyperbole and exaggerations as we have seen in some of the epics handed
> down
> > to us by griots.
> >
> > I urge anyone to pick up the sometimes over-priced copy of Henry Fenwick
> > Reeve's The Gambia: It's History, Medieval, and Modern or Lady Southorn's
> > The Gambia: The Story of the Groundnut Colony, and you would see the type
> of
> > fallacious or racist data that most of these writers documented.
> >
> > In the absence of reliable interpreters and depending largely on their
> > euphonic understanding of native sounds, early colonial writers
> contributed
> > in the distortion of pre-colonial history. Reeve refers to the King of
> > Barsally, which, he says is later called Barra or Ba Saloum. In 1765, Lt.
> > Gov. Joseph Debat referred to Barra as "Baragh".
> >
> > Here is what Reeve said about Gambians in particular and Africans in
> > general:
> >
> > "... the African, as the author knows him, is the personification of
> > untruth; that is he never tells the truth for truth's sake, even in the
> > simple matter of the position of a town or the distance thereto, but,
> like
> > those who are to be beaten with few stripes, he knows not the depth of
> his
> > iniquity from our point of view. He lies because facts are stubborn..."
> >
> > Sometimes, it borders on the comical. Cadamosta had this description of a
> > chaaya or daabaa kuurto, the traditional pants worn by Gambian men:
> >
> > "... breaches of this cotton which are tied across, and reach to the
> ankles
> > and are otherwise so large as to be from thirty to thirty-five, or even
> > forty palmi round the top; when they are girded round the waist they are
> > much crumpled and form a sack in front and the hinder part reaches to the
> > ground and waggles like a tail - the most comical things to be seen in
> the
> > world. They would come in these wide petticoats with these tails and ask
> us
> > if we had ever seen a more beautiful dress fashion...", (The Gambia: The
> > Story of the Groundnut Colony).
> >
> > In passing though, we have to give credit to European ethnographers and
> > linguists, such as Delafosse, Gaden, and Wilson-Haffenden for documenting
> > important aspects of pre-colonial societies in Africa.
> >
> > It was only with the advent of Cheikh Anta Diop that we started seeing
> > present day African intellectuals doing what European colonialists had
> done
> > on their behalf: the writing down of Africa's history, only this time it
> > came from the Africans themselves. Of course, we cannot forget that as
> early
> > as the fifteenth century Timbuktu had already produced scholars such as
> the
> > eminent Malian historian, Abdourahman es Sa'adi.
> >
> > According to the Senegalese historian Prof. Moussa Lam, an ardent
> > Egyptologist and a student of Cheikh Anta, Kaur was derived from the
> Fulani
> > phrase "...ngarey kauren daande maayo"... "let's meet at the river bank",
> a
> > call made by the nomads taking their cattle to drink.
> >
> > While some of the data available to us today cannot be scientifically
> > verified, it at least serves as a reminder that Africa's past is not only
> > filled with stories of naked savages and impenetrable forests.
> >
> > Momodou.
> >
> > omar joof wrote:
> > Malanding,
> > I am positive the erros were committed when the colonialists were getting
> > down the names of the villages and towns. Most of the names of the
> > settlements are also the names of either their founders or historical
> > personalities who had connections with them. However, some of them are
> > short
> > statements. The founder of Sukuta/Sabije/Dembadou was a man called Amoro
> > Cham. He was indeed Fula but the people who eventually left Bakoteh to
> join
> > the new settlement( as a result of some epedemic), were Mandinka .All the
> > three names are short Mandinka statements. They go as follows:
> > 1. Sukuta= New Home;
> > 2.Sabije( sageyo bejay)= A sheep is there;
> > 3.Dembadou(chamdembadou)= Place of the chams.
> >
> > Atleast with Sukuta the names are not badly distorted. We have our bad
> > example when Lameng is written as Lamin. We have another bad example
> where
> > Bakoteh is written as Bakoti. We do not know what Bakoti means, but we
> are
> > certain that Bakoteh( Baa ko tay), is the Mandinka for --" clear the
> other
> > side of the river/ cross to the other side of the river". Geographically
> > the
> > creek is there to give meaning to the name. Furthermore, the history
> which
> > surrounds the founding of the settlement also adds meaning to the name. I
> > am
> > baffled by the name Lameng. The "LA" at the beginning is very
> interesting!
> > Does it give the name a french or Arab root? Well for the moment I dont
> > know. But I am very positive that the mainstream culture of the
> settlement
> > has a vibrant Soninke root, which reveals itself during ceremonies and
> > rites. Perhaps someone out there should help us with what "Lameng" stands
> > for.
> > Omar Joof.
> >
> > >From: Malanding Jaiteh
> > >Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list
> > >
> > >To: [log in to unmask]
> > >Subject: Re: Gunjur or Kunjur?
> > >Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:58:36 -0400
> > >
> > >Omar and Mbye,
> > >This is where history of the Gambia becomes really interesting. That is,
> > >things are said one way and written another way, a definite recipe for
> > >distortion. As for how places get their name, that is another can of
> > worms.
> > >My two bututs: Kunjur, Lameng, Sabije (which could pass as Sare Biji -
> > >in Fula) are the correct ways. It is up to our scribes to write it as it
> > >is.
> > >Oops. Did I say Sare Biji? A quick disclaimer here Mbye Sey. No offense
> > >to your source although it is important to note that founding fathers of
> > >Sabiji were believed to be Fula. How they became the Mandinkas they are
> > >is another can of warms.
> > >
> > >Lets hope that bringing this up will inspire scholarly organizations
> > >like the Historical Society of the Gambia (if there is one in existence)
> > >to take up this and many others some day.
> > >
> > >Malanding
> > >
> > >[log in to unmask] wrote:
> > >
> > > > Malanding,
> > > > In records, Kunjur is given as Gunjur, and Lameng is given as Lamin.
> > > > As far
> > > > as I know the founders of the two towns call them Kunjur and Lameng
> > > > respectively. With regard Sukuta, it is also called
> > > > by its founders Sabiji and even Dembadou.
> > > > Omar Joof.
> > > >
> > > >> From: Malanding Jaiteh
> > > >> Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list
> > > >>
> > > >> To: [log in to unmask]
> > > >> Subject: Gunjur or Kunjur?
> > > >> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:48:31 -0400
> > > >>
> > > >> Folks,
> > > >> A quick question for all. Is Gunjur or Kunjur? Sukuta or Sabiji?
> Lamin
> > > >> or Lameng? I know they are writen one way and pronounced the other.
> So
> > > >> what are the real names of these towns?
> > > >>
> > > >> Malanding Jaiteh
> > > >>
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