Joe,

Your response proves that you did not understand the points I was trying to
make and that is just unfortunate.
I think all of us would like to see justice done regarding Jammeh and all his
collaborators, but you speak in the first person as if you are
single-handedly going to take care of these guys. Is that really how it will work or is it
not  a legal system that will demand answers and render punishment to these
people? Will it not be the Gambian people in a democratic process that would
collectively set up any laws for all to abide by, or are we going to send out
possees to hunt people down and kill them  without due process of the law for
committing crimes against us and then declare that we are the good guys? Is the
establishment of the rule of law what you are fighting for or the establishment
of another dictatorship where no one dares say a word because you believe you
have all the answers?

Joe, please remember that none of us is a government or represents a
government, or will even ever be called upon to represent a government at this point.
We are just ordinary Gambian citizens expressing what we would like to see in
our society, and doing what we can to make it a reality. Neither you nor
anyone of us single-handedly have any authority to make anyone pay even if we spit
this out at every turn. What we hope and work for is to be able to exercise
our rights as citizens one day  to vote in a government that will operate
according to the wishes of the majority of the people.
The modality of how one pays for a crime against us is not up to any one
person but to Gambians as a whole, under a rule of law, and if you understood what
you say you are fighting for, you would have understood the points i am
trying to make. Correct me if I am wrong but  I do not think any organization or
government in waiting has delegated you to declare what will happen, and that is
not the kind of society we are trying to establish.

You are quite bent on creating disharmony and divisions by insisting on
implying that certain people make comments only when certain groups are criticized
or attacked. This is divisive, unproductive, shortsighted and not what anyone
who claims to be fighting for the rights of all  Gambians should be engaged
in.

You have made yourself the tyrant of Gambia-L and now, even when people
choose  not to comment on an issue, you will come out chiding people and asking why
they are not making comments. What is that all about? Did you set up this
medium and have you been directing what is discussed here since the onset of this
list? Your endless tirades against people is making this medium an unpleasant
experience Joe, and a better Gambia with anyone that has this kind of outlook
would not be a better Gambia at all.
I raise the issue of human decency in the case of Ebou Jallows' mom and the
need to understand that fighting for justice and human rights cannot be a
selective process, and you have twisted it to mean that I am condescending in my
remarks.
You have also somehow decided based on my  remarks that my position is that
it is  OK to talk about Jammeh but not Ebou Jallow.
How did you arrive at that, and when i use the word "alleged" with regards to
accusations, you also see other motives in that.

Joe, in an orderly society that operates within the rule of law, i think all
justice loving people know that all accusations are  allegations until the
venue becomes the courts of law where the allegations can then be proven by
evidence. No doubt, anyone who envisions operating within the rule of law and how
this process unfolds in all law-abiding societies would not argue against this
point, and would not take it to mean that I am arguing on behalf of Jammehs'
or Ebou Jallow's guilt or innocence.

I think that if you are going to speak out on behalf of Gambian people, it is
imperative that you understand what it is you are fighting for, and by all
means, please stop twisting any comments made by anyone into an ethnic bias, and
trying to imply that they have other motives.
Joe Sambou, some of us started speaking out against this regime long before
your advent on this Gambia-L. We are clear and sincere in our opposition to
injustice and have a clear understanding that the best interest of our people is
served by clear thinking and an understanding of human interactions both
locally and internationally.

Your twisting of our words cannot obliterate what we stand for because it has
been and continues to be abundantly clear to all, never waivering even for a
moment. We can separate the issues and still maintain our stands against
injustice because without that ability humanity would be lost. One has to have the
foresight to blend all of that together or risk becoming a dangerous element
and  a deterent to progress as opposed to being an asset.

I will not engage in any prolonged exchanges with you on this issue  because
you do not understand any of the points I raised and these points, namey
simple human decency and the ability to think clearly are the foundation to any
struggle, and again, it is unfortunate that you have no understanding of these
important points.
Please exercise caution and insight lest you get drowned out by the sound of
your own voice.

Jabou Joh

In a message dated 10/10/03 11:03:47 AM Central Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:>
>
> Jabou, thanks for your interjection.  The same thing I said about Jammeh is
> the same thing I said about Ebou - they are all thieves and criminals.  My
> reference to Ebou not going home is to show him that with all his posturing
> on this forum, he still cannot go home because he has raccoons like him
> waiting for him.  I did not make them, they made themselves and this has
> nothing to do with what I think, just like the murder of Koro and many
> others has nothing to do with me or any of us.  Jabou please do not stretch
> my comment to what it is not.  If Ebou believes in all the BS he has been
> spreading in your exchange with him, then why is he not at home?  His mother
> died and he still cannot go back home and I am reminding him that he is
> fooling none but himself and the gullible and I have no remorse about that.
>
> I will say it again, Ebou is going to pay us in full and will tell us about
> the many murders he witnessed/participated, same as Yaya or anyone else.
> You have a right to go back and forth with Ebou, however, some of us are not
> into that with him.
>
> Ebou has called us all sorts of things, the latest is Monkeys, heathens,
> etc., I suppose that has a place for him.  Jabou, with all due respect I
> think you are very condescending in this your remark:
>
> "If we cannot separate the issue of an individual's guilt or innocence and
> the protection of rights under a just system, then we have missed the point
> entirely."
>
> I suppose you are the only one who can.  Please relate to Ebou the way you
> want to and leave others to do as they see fit.  This is not the first time
> you heard me deal with Ebou and it won't be the last.  I am going to be on
> Ebou's tail regardless of who is in his defense.
>
> Observation:  How come when we talk about Jammeh and others killing and
> stealing all say amen.  However, when it comes to a thief and liar called
> Ebou Jallow Jammeh then we hear moralizers say: only God can judge him; he
> is innocent until proven guilty; speak in terms of he being alleged to have
> stole; he said he did not take it and I believe him; he said he did not
> kill, but he told us he heard/saw others kill; Why don't these same
> moralizers say the same about Jammeh and others?
>
> Folks, if Ebou can come to us reckless, I shall give it back to him and then
> some and I am apologizing to none.  I hope I'm clear.
>
> Chi Jaama
>
> Joe Sambou
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Jabou Joh <[log in to unmask]>
> >Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list
> ><[log in to unmask]>
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: On the issue of Ebou Jallow's late mom
> >Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:22:43 EDT
> >
> >In a message dated 10/7/03 5:05:45 PM Central Daylight Time,
> >[log in to unmask] writes:
> >
> >
> > > Don't tell me you do not
> > > want to visit your mothers grave (rest in peace)?
> >
> >At the risk of being labelled with all sorts of labels, this needs to be
> >said
> >and I am going to say it because we have to be able to step back and view
> >situations with a clear head and address the issues that need to be
> >addressed
> >just because that is the right thing to do; and because we cannot afford to
> >loose
> >sight of the real issues in any discussion or we will not get anywhere.
> >
> >People, I would like to appeal to all of you who have made mention of the
> >above topic to please not include this topic in the discussions anymore. I
> >should
> >think that a topic like this has no place in our discussions regarding the
> >situation at home. Every time I hear this mentioned, my heart bleeds, why?
> >because I would like to believe that we are a people driven by decency and
> >the
> >conviction to institute a system of government that ensures the protection
> >of
> >rights, and that is why we are out here registering our protest. Therefore,
> >there
> >is no place in such an endeavour to taunt people regarding the death of a
> >loved one, otherwise, we are no better than the brutal regime that is
> >making life
> >miserable for our people.
> >
> >All of us have lost loved ones who have absolutely nothing to do with this
> >regime or the crimes perpetrated by their  offspring or relatives. They
> >deserve
> >to be accorded the respect due to them even  in death regardless of what
> >their
> >relatives may be accused of.
> >If we cannot separate the issue of an individual's guilt or innocence and
> >the
> >protection of rights under a just system, then we have missed the point
> >entirely.
> >
> >The constitution of the Unied States surpasses any other in the protection
> >of
> >the human rights of the individual and those who fight to protect it, be
> >they
> >individuals, lawyers or judges are the reason it stays intact for the
> >benefit
> >of all. Under this system, the issue between the persons' guilt or
> >innocence
> >and his rights under the system are never compromised no matter what they
> >are
> >accused of or even sharged with, and that is why it can continue to be a
> >viable system. The guardians of the system know that they cannot afford to
> >loose
> >sight of the fact that if a person's guilt or innocence becomes
> >personalized by
> >the guardians of the system, then that can compromises not only  the
> >accused
> >person's rights but that of the entire citizenry under teh same system.
> >It is fine line to walk, but walk it we must so that we do not ourselves
> >turn
> >into the dictators we are supposedly fighting. We cannot afford to be
> >selective in the administration of justice and the protection of the human
> >rights of
> >the individual at any point in time, no matter how angry we are at that
> >person.
> >
> >We have to remember that as citizens who stand up for justice and who
> >purport
> >to speak on behalf of the people, we have to be clear headed enough so that
> >our fight does not become personal, but rather an attempt to insitute a
> >just
> >system. A just system ensures the rights of all people, and it is the laws
> >we
> >institute in such a system, and not individuals that determines the
> >appropriate
> >punishment for all crimes against the state or any member of the society,
> >and
> >a court of law is the venue for such decisions. Therefore, even the
> >utterance
> >of words that imply the violation of the rights of the individual is
> >irresponsible and dangerous.
> >One of the main issues we have with the APRC regime is that they are not
> >operating within the law, and a society where people threaten to take the
> >law into
> >their own hands becomes a promise of another dictatorship.
> >
> >In the U.S, even the most despicable criminals are accorded their day in
> >court, and all the rights guaranteed to them under the constitution. If
> >they
> >cannot afford a lawyer, one is appointed for them and paid for by the
> >state. The
> >courts then decide the guilt and innocence of that person and the
> >appropriate
> >punishment is handed down. Even if someone kills your family member, you
> >cannot
> >shoot him or even threaten ot do so in public. This is so that individuals
> >do
> >not take the law into their one hands and thereby compromise the protection
> >it
> >accords to all.
> >
> >This system of laws that protect our rights is what  is being compromised
> >by
> >the APRC regime, and this is what we are fighting against. In our fight  to
> >istitute a fair and just system, we must never forget that at no point in
> >time
> >can we threaten to abbrogate the rights of even someone who is alleged to
> >have
> >committed crimes against us. We simply cannot afford such short
> >sightedness.
> >
> >If we start sounding like the APRC regime who think they are a law unto
> >themselves, this is a frightening prospect because then one is likely to
> >believe
> >that given the opportunity to hold positions of power, such persons will
> >see
> >themselves as a law unto themselves, and this is the direct opposite of
> >what I
> >assume we are working to accomplish.
> >
> >Let us take the issue of Ebou Jallow not being able to go home and disect
> >that point. Why is he not able to go home? Supposedly because the APRC
> >regime
> >will arrest or kill him, or do any number of things to him. Why? perhaps
> >because
> >he allegedly took three million dollars, but the money was alleged to be
> >put
> >into an illegal account for the regime. If all of that should prove true,
> >then
> >is it not a case of one of them trying to outsmart the other in an attempt
> >to
> >defraud the Gambian people? If we taunt one of them for not being able to
> >go
> >home, are we not cheering the others in their attempt to silence someone
> >who
> >may be guilty of the same crime as those hunting for him are?
> >
> >Let us also take the issue of people not being able to go home. I put it to
> >you that there are many others whom the APRC regime would like to lay their
> >hands on, and their only crime is that they have consistently spoken out
> >against
> >the injustices metted out to our people by this regime. If any outspoken
> >person goes home, they will probably meet the same fate Ebou Jallow would
> >at the
> >hands of the regime.
> >If we have a country where any citizen fears going home, that is a problem
> >for all of us.
> >
> >Therefore people, these are points that should make it abundantly clear to
> >all of us that we cannot afford to be selective when it comes to the
> >protection

> >of the rights of any Gambian, be they alleged criminals or otherwise.
> >Again, I repeat that what we need to focus on is the establishment of a
> >constitution that protects the rights of all so that our own will never be
> >compromised, and to have people in positions of leadership who will not
> >loose sight of
> >the important issue of never personalizing any issues such that we
> >jeopadize
> >that very system.
> >
> >Jabou Joh
> >
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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