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yanks dabo <[log in to unmask]>
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The Gambia and related-issues mailing list <[log in to unmask]>
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Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:42:27 +0000
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"Yanks you're a pain in the friggin neck - Pa Nderry's Cruelty" Haruna 

You know I hate to cause you any pain big Bro; so please accept my sincere apology.  

HI Bro Yanks, I am very pleased you took the time to share the principles 
upon which you are operating vis-a-vis Pa Nderry. I think it makes a lot of 
sense. There were a few misplaced submissions but by and large, I do not not 
intend to dissuade you from pursuits in either vengeance, retribution, or exact 
punishment not to exceed the crime should you so be able to qualify. I do take 
brotherly exception to a couple of principles in sociology that you share 
here with no intent for aversion to Kant or Einstein. For they are honourable 
men. Haruna

Thanks for the encouragement; I just find it baseless an argument where one does not learn anything. That is the substance in quoting Kant and Einstein to make even a topic as frivolous as relating to an uneducated hulk like Pa Nderry Mbai a bit educative. But in no vain did it mean to be a contest between brothers, I love you too much and even on this email I learn so much from you. You need never to feel that i don’t heed to your advices, regardless of how painful and in inconvenience I feel to depart from my fanatic principles.  
 
 [Kotekeh Haruna!
 Immanuel Kant wrote in philosophy of law 1887 that:
 “Even if a Civil Society resolved to dissolve itself with the consent of all 
its members – as might be supposed in the case of a people inhabiting an 
island resolving to separate and scatter themselves throughout the world – the 
last Murderer lying in the prison ought to be executed before the resolution 
was carried out. This ought to be done in order that every one may realise the 
desert of his deeds, and that bloodguiltiness may not remain upon the people; 
for otherwise they might all be regarded as participators in the murder as 
public violation of justice”.] Philosophy of law, page 198. Yanks.
 
“This may come as a surprise to you but I acknowledge the value of renovation 
Kant shares. He pre-supposes that the resolution to dissolve our community 
with the consent of all our colleagues. In our case, we have not arrived at 
such resolution yet. Kant further presumes that post-dissolution, the community 
will inevitably reform in some manner, similar to, or different from the 
manner of the communion to be dissolved. With that in mind therefore, the 
execution of the last murderer in Julangel ought to be contemplated with sobriety 
and propriety. If clearing the conscience of the society is the impetus for 
erasure, I would share that a society with a clear conscience is a band of 
marauding bandits. Renaissance's nourishment is the concept of review of history. 
It is no wonder Kant is not with us today and he does not share the story of 
his forebears”. Haruna

Bro I commend you for the attempt in interpreting the principle laid here by Immanuel Kant. I admire your appraisals especially on this sentence: “If clearing the conscience of the society is the impetus for erasure, I would share that society with a clear conscience is a band of marauding bandits” HD. But I differ to agree to its supposition here. Since, if a society with a clear conscience is a band of marauding bandits; then one wonders what a society without a clear conscience would be; a war turn country? I can live at peace with marauding bandits but can’t live in a war torn nation, simply I may get killed. On the issue itself, my appraisal of what Immanuel Kant expressed here is that crime should never go unpunished; every crime should be redressed, whether this cannot be achieved or impossible in the circumstance or unimportant, should not be the conclusion, but the starting point. The point should be to see that crime punish; this is only that may yield to deterrence, retribution on behalf of the victims by way of punishment. 
 
["This is the school of thought I subscribe to brother, some philosophers 
prefer calling it retributivist, some describe it as the cruel school of thought 
and I guess from your conclusion this is a mental school of thought. Yet we 
are not as worst as the ‘lex talionis’ the believers of the theory ‘eye for 
an eye, tooth for tooth’.  
 
Retributivists prefer to regard themselves as not cruel or mental as one 
would suppose, they treat a man with dignity, regarding him as a responsible 
agent. They give him a chance to expiate his crime by suffering, more or less a 
debt analogy, if you owe it, you pay it. Alternatively, far from being cruel, 
retribution is the offender’s right. How else is the breach between him and 
society to be healed? Or, at least retribution is not needlessly cruel, since 
society must denounce crimes in an emphatic way, and the only available 
method is retributive sentencing.] Yanks.
 
 
 
“My brother, I do subscribe to your view immediately above. However, the 
nature and councillor of retribution or punishment ought to be carefully studied. 
De minimis, its character and scope may not be in excess of the affect of 
the crime. That is what I share. It is quite alright to wish to exact 
punishment and or revenge, however, a farthing more punishment than is proprietary 
begs Hamurabi ad-infinitum. Further, the affect on the councillor, of even 
equivalent punishment must be considered prior. That is what I speak to for my 
brother”. Haruna

Bro I do understand the view point you share here; in fact it is very similar, if not exactly the same to the views of utilitarian camp leader Jeremy Bentham in his book: An Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation, 1970”. In it, he stated that “All punishment was in it self an evil, and could only be justified as far as it prevented some greater evil”. But Brother even the Good Samaritan utilitarians accepted that the pain of punishment may be outweighed by its good consequences if it deters the offender from re-offending again, or if it can be occasion for reforming the offender, or a result in a dangerous person being removed from society. My sole aim in contemplating on starting another paper to destroy freedom is not that of just vengeance and retribution per se, but with an aim that the Evil editor of freedom newspaper will be reformed or stopped from committing the crimes of slander and libel against innocent people.  
 
"Retributivists are different from the believers of lex talionis because 
quite frankly they are mental, since the exact equivalent of harm cannot be 
meted out to most offenders. For example, one cannot defraud a fraudster nor can 
you rape a rapist." Yanks.

“Indeed, one can defraud a fraudster and a rapist too”. Haruna

I totally agree with you here Bro, and I take my analogy back! 

"Retributivists concept of punishment if translated into the thoughts of 
Mandinka-kebba is that: one cannot speak to someone in a language they don’t 
understand; it is complete waste of energy, but if they speak Mandinka and you 
response in Mandinka then they understand." Yanks.
 
“I am reminded that in the lexicography of the Mandinka language, there are 
inflexions of varying tenor and emphasis. Yanks I understand what you're 
saying. I do not intend to take away from the excitement of punishment and 
prejudice. I merely urge more careful consideration as to manner and councillor”. Haruna

A point of utility; I heed to the advice big Bro and I promise due diligence will be taken when executing the justice against the venom of Pa Nderry. 

"From the retributivist point of view it is not madness to challenge cruel 
slanderers like Pa Ndery Mbai and the best way to do this, is to treat it like 
a debt which he owes and needs to pay back. To succeed in achieving this, one’
s appraisal has to give consideration to the medium used by the culprits in 
perpetrating the evil they have committed, in this case an on line newspaper. 
Is it for vainglorious pursuits? No. Is it worth it? yes!" Yanks.

“You share that the conduit of Pa Nderry's crime is an on-line tabloid. And 
it is free. Should you consider appraising the value of its product and 
circulation as well as the medium? Why would you want to expend energy, time, and 
resources to punish an invalid? Might you consider the manner of punishment 
therefore?” Haruna

Well, the alternative will be to condone his crimes, which is criminality itself, as explained by Einstein below.
 
"Albert Einstein, the great physician himself, once answered the question of 
who is a criminal, with this analogy. He it is not he who commits the crime 
in society; but he who has the power and means to stop the criminal or to do 
something about him and failed to do so or act accordingly to stop the 
criminality. If this analogy is applied to the scenario in topic here, it is not Pa 
Nderry who is the culprit perpetrating the crimes but we the able Gambians 
who seat and fold our hands together and do nothing except to wish for Pa 
Nderry’s mercy. I refuse to be that criminal." Yanks.
 
“I understand Yanks. I believe you shared that Pa Nderry has committed the 
crime or crimes. He therefore was not barred from the act of committing the 
crime or crimes. The commission of crimes is complete. Witness your desire to 
exact punishment. What Einstein shares is premised on the acknowledgement that 
the criminal comes from the society. And to the extent his crime is odious; 
the society ought to reconsider its ware. That is the moral behind Einstein's 
submission. If its any consolation to you, I hold no brief, neither do I 
muster empathy for Pa Nderry. I believe however that he is on a journey toward 
rehabilitation at no expense to you or society. That is the regenerative power 
Einstein urges us consider”. Haruna

Bro you do not need to reiterate nor remind that you would not muster empathy for Pa Nderry against me. I know that you would only muster empathy for me; because I am the family here. Is that not what the adage says; “Blood is thicker than water”. However, I think Einsten’s proposition above is to inform society that it has a duty to fight against crime. Remember Einstein had been a witness to a society that failed in this obligation and it led to its own defeat in the hands of societies that acted to uphold this duty. Einstein was in Germany and witnessed the growth of Nazism until he had to flee to the United States. 
 
"On the other hand Brother I perused your advice and reasoned well, but 
could not come to total agreement with it. Though I agree with you to some extent 
but I was of the opinion that yours sounded more like a utilitarian view on 
punishment than a retributivist. For the former I have washed my hands with 
it since my days of studying theories of punishment and sentencing. But saying 
that I do not harbour abhorrence for the concept of utilitarianism, in fact 
I tend to believe that utilitarianism is a concept developed or based on love 
and kindness for ones kin's. This is very good and I do think, brother 
Haruna, your advice here was manifesting your love for a brother." Yanks.
 
“I have always known you wise and discerning. I am pleased you recognize 
value in my pleadings”. Haruna

I have always regarded you as the master and I’m always learning from the Big bro. 
 
"I hope you would not wonder what in the heck is all this philosophy about, 
well the premises of my intention in creating an online paper to challenge Pa 
Nderry and Freedom Newspaper, is based on my retributivist believe that the 
punishment best fitting the crime of Pa Ndery is what has been clichéd as 
making one taste the fruit of his own medicine or deeds, which ever way it is 
phrased. Bro mine is not vainglorious pursuits but based on a true 
philosophical principle." Yanks.
 
“I understood Bro. I take a liking to philosophy oftentimes. I was pleased to 
read Kant and Einstein again. The energy, time, and resources you intend to 
invest in the mirror, would you consider investing it in the victims of Pa 
Nderry, whosoever were to have been so aversed?” Haruna

On a second thought Bro that’s a good advice; but Nah I can’t let that criminal continue 
his venom against our people; some time I can be very altruistic in nature and I hope we 
both share that. 
 
"I hope I have done you no offence." Yanks.

Far from it brother and colleague. I enjoy you thoroughly. I hope we have 
yielded each other a good turn.

Sincerely, Haroun Masoud. MQDT. AL Mu'Umin.
 
Brethren Yanks


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