To me there are two kinds of murderers those of the flesh and those of
the spirit one cannot be without the other! naturally impossible!
The solution is this! Give a physical murderer his spirit back then
he will stop killing he has no chioce? or that depends on the givers
means? Give a spiritual murderer his physical reality and he will stop the
cruelty altogether!Talking about kissing the floor? Nah!!
The victims are cut in the cross fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>From: kalilu camara <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: A challenge to those advocating violent change in The Gambia
> - Reply To Kebba Dampha
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:05:51 GMT
>
>"When the solution is simple God is working" Albert Eistein! E=mcc
>
>>From: Dampha Kebba <[log in to unmask]>
>>Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list
>><[log in to unmask]>
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: A challenge to those advocating violent change in The Gambia
>> - Reply To Kebba Dampha
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:59:50 EDT
>>
>>Buharry, I don't have the the desire now nor a whole weekend to respond to
>>your gibberish. When I do, you will swallow everything you said in this
>>posting in your subsequent posting. I realized that in this posting, you
>>began to back track about your "challenge". When I made it abundantly
>>clear
>>to you the pettiness of your "challenge", you narrowed it down to a yes or
>>no issue. You must really have time in your hands to write all those
>>sentences just to solicit a yes or no answer from us. Yeah I commended you
>>in the past, together with hamjatta (whom i still respect a lot despite
>>some
>>of our differences) Dr. Touray, Dr. Saine and others to show you that this
>>struggle has room for everyone. For lack of a better word, I attacked you
>>when you questioned the commitment and intelligence of the Gambian
>>electorate and people that advocate the violent removal of Yaya. And I
>>will
>>attack any one who does that. The pressure you talked about in this piece
>>seems to refer to the future. Whereas the pressure you were talking about
>>the other day was referring to the past. Clarify. For your information
>>also,
>>Darboe and co were released by a court in Banjul and not in Basse. The
>>Americans even dowplayed their presence in Basse saying that it was merely
>>to observe what was going on. Their prensence would not have stopped
>>Baabaa
>>Jobe. To conclude for now, I will just give you a simple statistic viz, on
>>April 10 and 11 when diplomacy (from the students) met force from Yaya, 15
>>children lost their lives. During the UDP ambush when force met force, one
>>Yaya supporter lost his life. It should not take a rocket scientist to
>>decipher this one. Watch this space. When I find time, I will show you
>>again
>>how you are fighting a losing battle. Before I forget, reread my earlier
>>postings. I never asked you to join me and others to overthrow Yaya
>>violently. What I was asking for was debate about what to do once Yaya was
>>gotten rid of. I have said this a number of times. I wonder why it escaped
>>you. Yeah I was frustrated that some could not see the subtle difference
>>in
>>what I was trying to say. But I was not irate and I do not hold any hard
>>feeling against people for not contributing to that debate when I called
>>for
>>their contributions. Many people, including yourself contributed
>>indirectly
>>to the debate. Am happy with that. If you look closely at one of the
>>memorandum I wrote, I called for the registration of Gambians living
>>abroad
>>to vote in presidential elections before it was brough up again by Dr.
>>Saine
>>and you volunteered to write something about it. I was happy to see that
>>contribution eventhough it was not done in response to my call. I would
>>not
>>even address (now or later) your insinuation about me being a dictator
>>like
>>Yaya. You contradicted yourself in your own piece because you said that I
>>come here to push some ideas. If I were a dictator, I would not come here
>>to
>>discuss issues. A few days ago, Saul registered his disagreement with my
>>counseling Ousainou Darboe to go underground. Did I become irate and
>>impose
>>my ideas on Saul? I respectfully explained my reasoning and then agreed
>>with
>>his position. There are tons of things that go on here and other forums
>>that
>>I do not agree with. But I do not go around imposing my will on people.
>>KB
>>
>>
>>>From: MOMODOU BUHARRY GASSAMA <[log in to unmask]>
>>>Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list
>>><[log in to unmask]>
>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>Subject: Re: A challenge to those advocating violent change in The Gambia
>>> - Reply To Kebba Dampha
>>>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:50:10 +0200
>>>
>>>Hi Kebba!
>>> Thank you for taking the time to respond to my
>>>posting.
>>>Before going further, I need to register the fact that out of respect not
>>>only for myself, the members of the L and you, I shall ignore the context
>>>in
>>>which you used some words. I shall also for the benefit of carrying out a
>>>healthy debate refuse to debate in a manner that would negatively impact
>>>on
>>>the serious and important topic that we are dealing with. Those things
>>>aside, please allow me to respond to some of the issues you raised. You
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>"Buharry, are you really serious when you ask us to come to Gambia_L and
>>>tell the whole world how we are going to overthrow Yaya?"
>>>
>>>Where did I ask you to go into the mechanics of how you are going to
>>>remove
>>>Yaya? What I asked was whether you had anything apart from empty rhetoric
>>>to
>>>convince people to rally behind you. A simple yes would have sufficed
>>>because I am not in any position to check the veracity of your
>>>statements.
>>>You can tell me that you have 100 million Dollars stashed somewhere,
>>>piles
>>>of arms and ammunition piled somewhere and whatever you want or you can
>>>tell
>>>me that you have absolutely nothing. I would only have to take your word
>>>for
>>>it because I am not in any position to verify what you say. Like I wrote
>>>earlier, the beauty of the cyber identity is that one can be anyone or
>>>possess whatever one wants. I would not expect you to detail how you are
>>>going to overthrow Yaya on this very L where all kinds of government
>>>agencies are subscribed. That would not be too bright of me now. Would
>>>it?
>>>
>>>You also wrote:
>>>"Childish challenges will not also prompt us to go to Gambia unprepared.
>>>So,
>>>save yourself. We have nothing to prove to you or your likes."
>>>
>>>Like I stated in the beginning, I shall not respond to this in a way that
>>>would derail the debate or in a way that would display disrespect on my
>>>part. You have nothing to prove to my likes or me? Have I become
>>>different
>>>just because I posted something that once differs from your point of
>>>view?
>>>Just a few weeks ago you wrote: "Buharry,Thank you very much for your
>>>contributions". So now I have become "those people"? If you have nothing
>>>to
>>>prove to my likes and me why did you come to Gambia-L to propagate your
>>>cause? There are hundreds of my likes listed here. Why have you time and
>>>again solicited contributions from members to draw a program for your
>>>cause?
>>>Why did you get irate when the hundreds of my likes refused to contribute
>>>because of our conviction that violence isn't the only way to bring about
>>>change, that there are other methods that should be explored to the
>>>fullest
>>>but have not as yet been?
>>>
>>>You wrote:
>>>"What kind of pressure on Yaya are you talking about?"
>>>
>>>There are endless varieties of pressures that can be brought to bear. In
>>>"Peace through Sanctions?" Recommendations for German UN Policy, Manford
>>>Kulsessa and Dorethee Starck list the following types of sanctions most
>>>of
>>>which can in my opinion be effectively applied to The Gambia. The types
>>>of
>>>sanctions are:
>>>- Diplomacy where there is closure or a reduction of diplomatic missions,
>>>ban on entry of officials or exclusion from international organizations.
>>>- Transport where there is a ban on air, sea and suspension of rail and
>>>road
>>>traffic.
>>>- Communications where post and telecommunications are suspended.
>>>- Development co-operation where post and telecommunications are
>>>suspended.
>>>- Military where military co-operation is terminated and an arms embargo
>>>is
>>>instituted.
>>>- Finance where there is a ban on foreign assets and a ban on financial
>>>transfers.
>>>- Trade where embargos and boycotts are instituted.
>>>- Criminal justice where criminal proceedings are instituted against
>>>individuals in international tribunals.
>>>
>>>David Cortright and George A. Lopez point out in Carrots, Sticks and
>>>Co-operation: Economic Tools of Statescraft how the US maintained an
>>>"outer
>>>wall" of sanctions by among other things blocking Belgrade's membership
>>>in
>>>international organizations. In Nigeria under Abacha, the US banned all
>>>arms
>>>sales to the country and expanded its ban on US visas for the junta and
>>>its
>>>supporters. The EU imposed an arms embargo; travel restrictions and a
>>>sports
>>>boycott while the Commonwealth Ministerial Action Group suspended it from
>>>membership. In the same book, the authors discussed how an Institute for
>>>International Economics study shows that of all the types of sanctions
>>>available, financial sanctions were the most effective. Measures such as
>>>"the freezing of foreign assets, the cancellation of debt rescheduling,
>>>the
>>>withholding of credits and loans, and restrictions on travel, commerce
>>>and
>>>communications" were shown to be very effective in bringing a regime to
>>>its
>>>knees especially when that state is weak. So you see Mr. Dampha, there
>>>are
>>>various types of pressure that can be brought to bear.
>>>
>>>You also wrote:
>>>"What would you do if he rigs the next elections?"
>>>The art of applying and maintaining pressure is to be both proactive and
>>>reactive. Proactive in that one has to have a hands-on approach and
>>>thoroughly analyse the situation and predict what the opponent is going
>>>to
>>>do. That way one can put measures into place to discourage him/her from
>>>doing it. Reactive in that one needs to quickly react when the feared
>>>situation arises preferably with contingency measures that were already
>>>designed. Pressure can therefore be brought against Yaya before the
>>>elections to ensure that the elections are fair and regulated and
>>>pressure
>>>can be brought if he rigs the elections. Remember the short travel advice
>>>of
>>>the British and the impact it had on the tourism sector?
>>>
>>>You further wrote:
>>>"Well we would rather not put the Gambians in that position in the first
>>>place."
>>>Wow! Thanks for your concern. However, I believe that the alternative you
>>>are proposing has the potential to put them in a far worse position than
>>>what you are rejecting.
>>>
>>>You also wrote:
>>>"So am being led to the conclusion that some of you people have been
>>>blinded
>>>by your
>>>egos. You perhaps had previously gone on record saying that you would
>>>never
>>>support violence. So because of that, things that should be glaring
>>>before
>>>your eyes would read something else to you. Get off your high horses and
>>>join the struggle."
>>>
>>>Excuse me, Sir! Egos? High horses? C'mon, man. Whose ego is getting the
>>>best
>>>of whom here? Can you understand that some of us truly believe in a
>>>non-violent solution to Gambia's problems? Is it strange to you? Are you
>>>demanding that we see things exactly as you do? Isn't that a bit too
>>>dictatorial on your part sir? I reverse your contention that I get off my
>>>high horses back to you. I think you should come down to the ground and
>>>join
>>>the rest of us who know that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion.
>>>That is the basis of democracy, the democracy you are planning to
>>>institute
>>>in The Gambia. Who told you that I am not in the struggle? Just because I
>>>do
>>>not propagate violence does not mean that I am not in the struggle. The
>>>struggle is a multi-faceted enterprise. Do you truly believe that I would
>>>stick to a position just for the sake of being afraid of changing it
>>>because
>>>people would see me in a different light? C'mon sir. I flatteringly like
>>>to
>>>think of myself as a dynamic, humble and willing-to-learn person. I have
>>>many a time even on this L changed my position because someone put in
>>>better
>>>arguments. Accepting the superiority of other ideas when they are is the
>>>essence of learning and I am a learner.
>>>
>>>You also wrote:
>>>"You should know about the struggles of ANC. Did Nelson Mandela, Oliver
>>>Thambo and the senior Mbeki just sit down and wait for nonexistent
>>>election
>>>victories or put all their faith in the hands of the international
>>>community? No. They bombed the South African government. "
>>>
>>>I know not only about the struggles of the ANC but that of South Africa.
>>>You
>>>see I like to consider myself to be a Pan-Africanist. I considered the
>>>ANC
>>>a
>>>sell out during my college days because of their approach. I was more
>>>impressed by the PAC's "one settler, one bullet" approach. I read so many
>>>books about the South African struggle. One of my best friends in college
>>>was the son of Malinga, one of the founders of the PAC who died in
>>>prison.
>>>I
>>>was very much against Mandela's concessionary stance when he became
>>>president but after analysing the situation, I was converted. I realised
>>>that Mandela's stance was more practical and was better for South Africa
>>>because another approach would have meant bloodshed and unwanton
>>>destruction. For you to truly believe that South Africa got rid of
>>>Apartheid
>>>ONLY because the ANC was bombing targets within South Africa is truly
>>>amazing. Do you underestimate the impact that sanctions had? External
>>>sanctions coupled with the civil resistance campaign of the UDF helped to
>>>bring about sweeping political transformation.
>>>
>>>You wrote:
>>>"Oliver Thambo was in exile running the ANC machinery.Did South Africans
>>>say
>>>that they were not going to listen to his calls for self-defense because
>>>he
>>>did not live in South Africa? Did they say that they were only going to
>>>listen to people like Desmond Tutu or sell-outs like Buthelezi? So my
>>>friend, it is not about where you live, it is about what you bring to the
>>>table."
>>>
>>>The ANC machinery was already in place before he went into exile. I
>>>believe
>>>that one can make a positive impact wherever one is. One can also make
>>>devastating prescriptions knowing fully well that one is sheltered from
>>>the
>>>repercussions. If you truly believe that you can make a positive
>>>contribution from wherever you are without jeopardising our country,
>>>power
>>>to you.
>>>
>>>You also wrote:
>>>"Not with our lives as you might have preferred. We tried diplomatic and
>>>constitutional means and they did not work."
>>>
>>>Mr. Dampha, let me state here that I am NOT your enemy. I would not want
>>>you
>>>to lose your life. You are a Gambian like all other Gambians and it is
>>>because of my concern for Gambians that I am concerned about the
>>>repercussions of the approach you preach. I do not want violence in my
>>>country because violence would lead to loss of lives and that is the last
>>>thing I want. Could you please furnish us with the diplomatic and
>>>constitutional means you tried so that they can be established to be
>>>unworkable?
>>>
>>>You wrote:
>>>"I contribute more than you do in trying to make sure that the culprits
>>>of
>>>the massacres face justice."
>>>
>>>Power to you, my brother. Who said that I contribute more than you do?
>>>This
>>>is not a competition. I am sincerely glad to learn that "you are doing a
>>>lot
>>>to make sure that the culprits of the massacres face justice." That is
>>>what
>>>I also want and to see that you have contributed to this cause truly
>>>makes
>>>me happy.
>>>
>>>You further wrote:
>>>"What we have a problem with is people that limit our options or give
>>>priority to options
>>>that are clearly unworkable."
>>>
>>>So you have a problem with people having a different approach to a
>>>problem?
>>>You call Yaya a dictator. Why? Isn't it because he too has a problem with
>>>people who have different approaches?
>>>
>>>You wrote:
>>>"Like I said yesterday (keep repeating myself. But I will gladly do so
>>>until
>>>it sinks into your heads)"
>>>
>>>Please, please do. Some of us, especially me, are not that clever. So you
>>>might definitely have to keep hammering home your point before it sinks.
>>>I
>>>was not blessed to be as clever as you.
>>>
>>>You wrote:
>>>"Why don't you want to believe that if a bloodless coup can be pulled in
>>>1994 another one can be pulled in 2000?"
>>>
>>>Let's make a deal here. I believe that a bloodless coup can be pulled
>>>off.
>>>Do you believe that one or more factors can interfere with your
>>>"bloodless
>>>coup" and turn it into a disaster? Things can always go wrong even in the
>>>most planned of events.
>>>
>>>You wrote:
>>>"If you were attacked by a wild animal today and you have a loaded gun in
>>>your hand, would you opt to extend your hand to it in the name of
>>>diplomacy
>>>or would you blow its brains out?"
>>>
>>>That depends. If it happens in a vacuum, that is, I am alone with the
>>>animal; I would gladly blow its brains out. However, as I said earlier,
>>>events you are prescribing won't happen in vacuum and there are a lot of
>>>people who might get hurt in the process. The situation by the way is not
>>>as
>>>acute as to leave the options you painted in your scenario. There are
>>>still
>>>some options that can be explored.
>>>
>>>You further wrote:
>>>"If your principles of non-violence are so dear to your heart that you do
>>>not want to join us, fine with us. But please do not demoralize our
>>>people
>>>back home by telling them that the ballot box is the only means Yaya can
>>>be
>>>removed from office."
>>>
>>>Why can't you believe that I also want the best thing to happen to The
>>>Gambia? We might have different prescriptions for solving our country's
>>>problems but that does not make us enemies. The solution to The Gambia's
>>>problems as mentioned earlier is multi-pronged and all on the various
>>>fences
>>>should not consider each other enemies. Where did I say that the ballot
>>>box
>>>is the only way of removing Yaya?
>>>
>>>You further wrote:
>>>". people like me have recently called upon the UDP supporters to arm
>>>themselves and not let their guard down during the coming campaign
>>>season.
>>>We are not calling upon you to leave your cozy existence in Europe to go
>>>fight in The Gambia neither are we calling upon your unarmed civilian
>>>brothers to go and confront Yaya."
>>>
>>>I ask you where those people are going to get the arms. I further ask you
>>>where they are going to get licences for those arms because you surely
>>>wouldn't want them to face heavily armed security personnel with stones,
>>>sticks etc.? The civilian UDP supporters you are calling upon to be armed
>>>and confrontational are my fellow Gambians and brothers and sisters. For
>>>your information, I am not living a cosy existence. I am hustling man,
>>>like
>>>most Gambians abroad.
>>>
>>>You also wrote:
>>>"What do you want us to tell the UDP? To lie down and let BaaBaa Jobe
>>>walk
>>>all over them? Or like some of your heroes, pretend that nothing
>>>undeserving
>>>happened to the UDP entourage? Or like others, pretend that this was not
>>>orchestrated by Yaya and his bunch of bandits? We would continue to
>>>advocate
>>>the removal of Yaya through violent means until pacifists like you come
>>>up
>>>with better means of removing him. If you are waiting for your heroes on
>>>the
>>>ground to advocate the removal of Yaya through violent means, then you
>>>will
>>>never see that and therefore you will never be a convert."
>>>
>>>No. No. No. Who is pretending that nothing happened to the UDP? Who is
>>>talking about letting Baba Jobe walk over the UDP? The very presence of
>>>the
>>>American and UK ambassadors in the area where the UDP entourage was held
>>>played a significant part in their release. Pressure, man, pressure. If
>>>pressure is strategically courted and applied, the results might amaze
>>>you.
>>>BTW, who are my heroes on the ground?
>>>
>>>You also wrote:
>>>"The way you help the situation, is to do like Colly, Saul , Matarr and
>>>others and expose Baabaa Jobe and Yaya for the cowards they are and urge
>>>UDP
>>>to be more vigilant."
>>>
>>>That is not the only way to help the situation. That is one of various
>>>ways
>>>to help and I say thanks to those mentioned for providing the information
>>>because it is really revealing. I am not saying that the UDP should not
>>>be
>>>vigilant. What I am saying is that the UDP should not send 10 hens to
>>>fight
>>>100 lions.
>>>
>>>You finally wrote:
>>>".send a silly petition to the international community."
>>>
>>>Thanks for sharing your views on how you see our petition. However, that
>>>petition, the demonstrations around the world, the action of people on
>>>the
>>>ground played an important part in bringing the events of April to the
>>>attention of the international community. There you see, pressure sir.
>>>Thanks and sorry for such a long posting.
>>>
>>>Buharry.
>>>
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L
>>>Web interface at: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/gambia-l.html
>>>
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>________________________________________________________________________
>>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L
>>Web interface at: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/gambia-l.html
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L
>Web interface at: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/gambia-l.html
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L
Web interface at: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/gambia-l.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
