Thanks Mr Nordam,

Very though-provoking article.  I will deal with some of 
the issues from my perspective in a few days time Insha' 
Allah (God willing). In the meantime could I ask you 
whether you believe that Hiltler or any of his contemporary 
dictators like Stalin were products of their own society or 
more importantly they (the people) diserve such leaders?

Have a pleasant day

Mansour


On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:42:30 +0200 
Asbj=?ISO-8859-1?B?+A==?=rn Nordam <[log in to unmask]> 
wrote:

> Friends,
> most of this very long comment is written more than  6 weeks  ago, when
> there were comments on Gambia-l saying that Jammeh should be removed by all
> means. More and more information and debate on Gambia- L and my
> summer-holidays got me to wait. Specially the postings of Buharry Gassama on
> "The Dilemmas of Transitional Justice" got me to  send my thoughts. My
> gambian friends warns me. They say that I as a foreigner have already said
> too much. I´m glad to see that EU is now officially saying something. I have
> tried to keep touch with my government, but they still answer, that they are
> acting coordinated within EU and UN, because The Gambia is not a country
> which Denmark has close bilateral connection to.
> 
> Like in other parts of the world our leaders are a "product" of our society,
> political, cultural and social. Is jammeh not a "pure product" of The Gambia
> and it´s system ? Like Clinton, Putin, Blair, Arafat, Barak, Jiang Zemin  or
> Milosevic, Pinochet, Amin etc. are products of their systems ? How can the
> people defend themselves against their leaders ? And how can they act, if
> they believe that their leaders has lost "touch", leadership. If you mean
> that Jammeh and his government is illegal, or has turned out in an
> unacceptable way, what are your means of action ? How can you be sure that
> the next one will not be the same, or the next again? How will you create a
> "system" and a leadership or political "culture", that ensure you will not
> get the same sitaution ? How come that more than half the gambian population
> cried "hail" 6 years ago ? Why can the gambian institutions not put a stop
> for a presidency or government which turns out "wrongly" ?
> 
> Do we the past year witness the self-destruction of a state? Is fight and
> violence a part of political work and rally ? Is "eye for an eye"-principle,
> revenge vital for gambians ? will the end justifies the means ?  When will
> the mothers demonstrate (22.july)?
> 
> I´m not the one to challenge the sitting government, because I sit here far
> from the center, suffer nothing, has not to fight to survive. So it´s easy
> to have an opinion and voice it. But I have visited The Gambia since 1978,
> and have so many gambian friends for life, from different sides of the
> gambian society. I know and visit people in positions, in institutions of
> todays Gambia, and I have friends who have served under the former and the
> present government, like I have friends who has been and still are engaged
> in gambian politics, some in favor of  and some  in opposition to both the
> former PPP and the present APRC. No matter which party they find satisfy
> them, they are still my friends. I´m glad that I´m so "ignorant" that I
> never know  which tribe they belong to. Only when we are celebrating
> something, I notice the slight differences of the cultural habits and
> recognize that today I´m visiting a Jola family, yesterday it was a Serehula
> and tomorrow it will be a mandinka. To me they are all my gambian friends
> and families.
> 
> What is happening in The Gambia today influent very much on my daily life.
> Nearly every day I think: How  are they, how do  they  manage, how life is
> in The Gambia. 
> I try to help some individuals, some families, two small villages, the
> little I can, and I´m  happy whenever I get the information that my friends
> are by good health, manage OK. Or when I am invited to celebrate, when they
> get married, have children, naming ceremonies, start in school, pass exams,
> get a job, the football team wins, the girls in the village form a drama
> group. Like I´m very sad and sorry when children,  parents or family members
> die, they fight with poor living conditions, get injured, have a disease,
> etc. And I´m glad when a new school is build, a clinic, the airport and the
> national TV started, Gambia College, GTTI or the university program shows
> progresses.
> Like I´m not so glad when the farmers are not paid for the groundnuts, the
> roads are in bad condition, the burden of the school-fees are too much for
> the ordinary gambian family, the lack of medicine and too many military in
> the streets, etc.
> 
> The very many gambians I come to know over the years are not my family, but
> they are all very close to me, and I think of them every day. I know more
> gambians in the gambian, then i know of swedes in my neighbor country
> Sweden, or any other place outside Denmark. That´s why The Gambia is always
> in my mind. How their daily life is influenced by the sitting government,
> the politics are of great interest to me. That is why I have been following
> the situation  since early 80´ies. It was a coincident that I ended up in
> The Gambia in 1978. But after my first visit to The Gambia it became MY
> AFRICAN COUNTRY. I have tried to live with what I experienced of good and
> bad, and that I could not compare with my own country on standards.
> 
> And sitting here in Denmark I also know that my "picture" of what is going
> on in the Gambia is formed by the information I have access to.
> 
> But I find the information more and more alarming. As Rene Badjan describe
> it in "I watched a movie", to me it´s also like a repetition. I live in
> Europe and I have it just outside my door. The destruction or
> self-destruction of a state. We have seen it again and again, how people who
> come to power by all means try to stay there. No Matter what it costs they
> ruin the state, oppress their own people. In the beginning they do many fine
> things, but for some reason they lose focus, blinded by the greed for power.
> 
> They put aside the constitution, the laws, the rules and regulations. They
> harass, oppress, intimidate the people. They favor  party-members, they go
> for their opponents, the free press. And step by step they try to keep
> power. The "power" corrupts them (just watch the painful hearings right now
> of Mr. Kohl of Germany).
> 
> They even establish a national intelligence where neighbors and family
> members can go and inform, and when it´s appropriate you go and make
> arbitrary arrests. (We see it even here in Denmark, even a very few cases).
> Torture will be done first secretly later on more openly, and people
> disappear. They appoint the judges from their own supporters and put aside
> most human right principles. They postpone elections, or make special rules
> and regulations, so no matter how elections turn out, they stay by power.
> They practice ethnic cleansing.
> In my life-time I have seen it in East-Germany, Rumania, Russia, parts of
> former Yugoslavia and some of the states in the former Soviet Union, now
> more or less "independent". And I have seen it world wide.
> 
> Is it what I witness now in The Gambia. A transformation of  a legal state ?
> I pray that must not happen. Every day I think that today we will have some
> good news from the president or sitting government !
> 
> Is the government is confused ? The ministers and heads of departments are
> engaged and dismissed in a tempo, that they can not administer ? Lack of
> respect for institutions like  courts and magistrates. Lack of parliamentary
> order and discipline (lack of quorum) ? Lack of control with the states
> budget ? Lack of control and discipline of the police-, military- and
> intelligence-corps, where the command-structure runs out of order, where
> ordinary staff members can torture people in their custody ?Arbitrary
> arrests, banning of public media ?
> 
> In april the students wanted to make a demonstration, and because they
> published and asked permission, the authorities answer was a brutal "NO",
> and the result is known by all of us. It was not like the students in China,
> who criticized the government. It was a wake-up-call to the authorities to
> establish legal order and become more serious on two reported cases. It was
> a solidarity-act, not a threat against the state. But the apply led to
> military readiness for instant action in several places !! Some sort of
> paranoia ? But afterwards I felt some lack of support from their friends and
> families in the streets ? Why is it that not all people in Kaniefing,
> Jeswang, Bakau, Serekunda came out of the compounds and just went to the
> highway, and sat down, demonstrated solidarity ?
> Why are the families, the neighbors, the mothers, the women not marching ?
> Because the fear sits deep in them, and "enough is still not enough" to let
> the fear behind. 
> 
> I have said it before: there are too many families who are depending on the
> job (salary) one of the family-males has in the police, the military,
> paramilitary, intelligence. Many keep silent because they are depending.
> 
> I have visited  local markets  in The Gambia, and I have learnt from my
> visits to the villages, that the women are were good in organizing. What
> should keep them from suddenly one morning start marching ? Come from all
> corners of the country, take their children by the hand, and just peacefully
> demonstrate, that enough is enough. Will their sons in the police-,
> military-forces once again try to stop and fire  live-bullets into their own
> mothers, sisters, children ?
> 
> I don´t believe in violence, but I believe that the people has it´s own will
> and means of action. And the moral RIGHT to fight for justice and a state
> worth living in.
> 
> But I also read how some of you gambians on this Bantaba has expressed, that
> it is a part of the political process to expect violence. How is it that
> some gambians  expect, that if you are involved in politics, you must also
> expect your political opponents will attack you not only verbal, but also
> physically, violently when you are on rallies ? One of you on the list
> advocate that the youth wing of UDP should have "military"-training, so they
> could fight back at rallies. (the youth wing of the NAZI-party in Germany
> was also trained to do so, and later some were recruited to the Gestapo).
> Where and what will that lead to ? Do we expect that violent fights between
> supporters is a part of the political process, and should be expected , else
> there has not been a "real" rally.
> 
> And if we accept certain means of action as "realpolitics", even it´s
> morally corrupt,  we have not put  up a new standard, shown a new way of
> political leadership.
> 
> From the very beginning I have said you can cry tyran, murder whatever you
> like. You can compare with Hitler and others. But if you are not better
> yourself, what will you then call yourself ? I have noticed the comments
> from some of you, who want action -(better than words) , even killings, eye
> for an eye, call for radical solutions.
> 
> Let me ask those of you, who ask for militant/radical solution:  what is
> your calculation of  death-rates, etc. ? Or is the plan just to kill Jammeh,
> and let all politicians, parliament etc. continue as nothing has changed but
> the president ? Will Jammeh face a trial if you catch him ? And is
> death-penalty legal in The Gambia ? Or will you just kill him like we have
> faced in ex-yugoslavia, or in Rumania ?
> And will you ensure to be the last one in a chain of militants who take
> power ? Or will you just be the next link in such a chain, and confirm that
> "this is the way we do it" ?
> Will you hand over to other gambians after the take-over, and to whom ?
> Should it be people you accept ? Or who will have to accept the terms you
> put up ? What are the plans to go from the first act - fight and kill
> Jammeh- to the next - law and order abiding leadership, free and open
> elections ? And should you have legal immunity from the next government from
> the "murder" you have committed ? Or can they raise a legal case (Jammehs
> family f.in.) Or  will "the end justifies the means " ?
> 
> If I have to accept that you get rid of Jammeh the way you suggest it, (take
> him, bring him to stadium and blow his head off) how will you convince me,
> that you by such act has changed leadership, created a new "culture", that
> you will not continue in the footsteps, but you will restore law and order ?
> Was it not what Jammeh promised ? Lately we have got information that brings
> us back to the coup d´etat 1981, over MOJA-G up till now. Within 15 years
> (1981-1995) of modern (post colonial) gambian history you can mention at
> least 2 attempts to take power illegal. How will you by using this method
> for the 3rd time make a break of such a TRADITION ? (I  know that I live in
> Europe, where political assassination is still daily order !)
> 
> If you say that Jammeh took power illegal (constitutional), what will you
> call it if you have no legislation and judgement behind a decision to take
> and kill the president ? Where is the difference between the two acts ? I
> have heard many of my gambian friends telling me, that even they did not
> find Jammehs "way to power" was legal, they accepted the means of power,
> because he got rid of Jawara , and it was without waist of blood. And I
> answer, that I can not accept any of  the explanations, even I come from
> Europe where killings, coup détat has been the way to power for more than
> 2000 years. Jawara should have been removed by the ballot. They (my friends)
> answer: "it was impossible". There we sit. And will we just repeat history ?
>  
> Is it so that some Gambians like action,  like to pay back,  revenge, they
> like an eye for an eye, to "restore honor or image" or why ? There were some
> of my friends, who after the Jammeh - coup wanted him (Jammeh) to bring
> Jawara back and  killed for his years in power, so he could "taste his own
> medicine". If they could not bring him back, then kill him where he was.
> 
> But where will this end. You can cry freedom first then democracy, but what
> you leave behind is just another opponent , another gambian who think of
> revenge in the future, and you will never come together and reconcile and go
> ahead. You will end up in a death-spiral. You can never build the future on
> fear, hatred.  
> 
> I am not tolerating political oppression, torture or killings, I think that
> my comments in this Bantaba has shown that.
> I think that the april incident was an escalation of that negative
> "culture", which allow you to take power in your own hand, stop, arrest,
> harass, torture people without any respect for him/her. And I believe that
> such a "culture" can only be established under certain social-economic
> conditions. Why have some policemen or soldiers to torture prisoners, which
> are under control in the prison. Why is it they "like" to humiliate, offend,
> torture another person, who is in their hands ? It happens not only in The
> Gambia, but also in Denmark, USA, all over every day.
> 
> You got to break that "culture", that way of humiliate other people,
> demonstrating you have the power. It´s practiced all over the globe, but is
> not acceptable.
> 
> If you accept that there are certain incidents, some actions, some misrule
> or bad administration, which give you the right to kill the leaders, who are
> the ones to judge, when  the limit is reached, when enough is enough ?
> Is it your standard ? can every single person do so, or must we establish a
> public common sense, that now it´s enough and now we can kill ?
> 
> How will we have to handle this in the future ? Can we kill if the
> government fail to establish fundamental living conditions for the people ?
> Or will we need to se political banning, harassment, torture, bad
> leadership, bribery, hidden money (how much) before we can kill ? Or do we
> need to see they are direct or indirectly responsible for murder, before we
> can accept that people take action, law in their own hand ? Under which
> circumstances will we accept that killings is the only way to stop it ?
> 
> If  you can "trace the april incident" from the man who pulled the trigger
> to the government or the president, you will have a case against him/them.
> If you can not, you have no case. If  you can not establish a clear line of
> facts and responsibilities from the bullets which killed to the President,
> you must accept that you have no case against him, and will have to put him
> and his government down by other means, f.in. at the next elections.
> 
> Even we all feel that there is someone higher up, who is responsible, you
> must accept certain rules to go for him. No matter how the people in power
> try to hide, try to cover up  (often seen  in my part of the world like
> Watergate) you have to accept that´s how the system works.
> 
> To me the question has been from the very first moment after the april
> massacre, IS YOUR PRESIDENT YAYA JAMMEH (and his party-members) NOT A
> PRODUCT OF THE GAMBIA ? Just like yourself.  Has he been a schoolboy and
> brought up in the Gambia by a gambian family, gambian teachers, religious
> scholars etc ? Has he been  military trained and educated in The Gambia ?
> From where has he and his government got the ideas of  leadership, how to
> run a country ? And who has been his advisors in  life ? Gambians ?
> Is it heredity or environment that creates his and his governments way of
> leadership.
> 
> From the very beginning mid-april I have been thinking how will Jammeh avoid
> elections ? Because I like you come to think that he and his party could not
> overcome and win an election after what happened. And the more reports we
> get from The Gambia, that he never show up anymore, the government/
> administration and party are confused, I thought: how can the president and
> the government step down, resign and let over without bloodshed ? But then
> again why should they ? Why not just continue throughout the rest of the
> period, and then take it or leave it, the judgements day.
> 
> In Denmark we say,   you should always leave a door open for an opponent to
> get out. But already  many try to block all doors for Jammeh and his
> government. Why has no one tried to let a door open they can get out of ?
> What could it be, that Jammeh and his government could not refuse ?
> 
> Why create  a "political culture", that when you are no longer in power you
> will face a lots of problems, we will go for revenge. Well, if someone
> deliberately has broken the laws, enriched yourself by a criminal act, you
> should fear for a legal lawsuit ? Even some of the prison-camp-tormentors
> from the Bosnian war are now brought to a legal process accused for crimes
> against humanity. But still some of the leaders Mr. Milosovic f.in. are not
> yet taken.
> 
> I asked my gambian friends: how come that some  leaders can not accept, that
> after term they can not be reelected, or they can be forced out by the
> voters, and just take it for what it is ? Why is it so connected to HONOR
> that they try to stay in power, even they have to bend the laws and
> constitutions and put aside the fundamental legal and democratic principles
> just to stay in power ?
> 
> Why is it that many of us  want the opposition to win the coming election,
> no matter what their political manifests are like?
> Is it of no meaning what party you vote for at the coming elections, as long
> as it is  not the ruling one ? What are the alternatives to the sitting
> government ? Those of you who want to kill/fight to take over, which party
> will you then deliver the power to ? Many advocate for the different parties
> to put aside differences and come together in order to put down the sitting
> government. It can be a step in a direction, but when you got to rule
> afterwards you got to have a plan of action based on a certain politic and
> idea how to raise the country. And then there is a difference between
> liberal capitalism and socialism.
> 
> The next step after winning elections has to be solved even before election
> take place. How will you recommend the different parties to create a
> government and politically rule the country after they overcome the sitting
> government ?
> 
>  There are many questions, and I´m sorry that I don´t have the answers: why
> is it that not all the civil society is reacting by silent demonstration ?
> Is enough still not enough ? why is it that some of you who ask for killing
> the president believe that you have the legal right to do so, and how will
> that change the "political culture" ?
> Why is it that many of my gambian friends can not live on until they have
> got "revenge" ? 
> Why is it that some leaders can not accept just to step down by the end of
> term, or voted out ?
> And is Jammeh a product of The Gambia ?
> And how will you make different parties with totally different ideologies to
> corporate after eventually winning elections ?
> 
> A long mixture of comments, questions and thoughts
> from Asbjørn Nordam
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L
> Web interface at: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/gambia-l.html
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------
Mansour Ceesay
[log in to unmask]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L
Web interface at: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/gambia-l.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------