"When the solution is simple God is working" Albert Eistein! E=mcc

>From: Dampha Kebba <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: A challenge to those advocating violent change in The Gambia
>            - Reply To Kebba Dampha
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:59:50 EDT
>
>Buharry, I don't have the the desire now nor a whole weekend to respond to
>your gibberish. When I do, you will swallow everything you said in this
>posting in your subsequent posting. I realized that in this posting, you
>began to back track about your "challenge". When I made it abundantly clear
>to you the pettiness of your "challenge", you narrowed it down to a yes or
>no issue. You must really have time in your hands to write all those
>sentences just to solicit a yes or no answer from us. Yeah I commended you
>in the past, together with hamjatta (whom i still respect a lot despite
>some
>of our differences) Dr. Touray, Dr. Saine and others to show you that this
>struggle has room for everyone. For lack of a better word, I attacked you
>when you questioned the commitment and intelligence of the Gambian
>electorate and people that advocate the violent removal of Yaya. And I will
>attack any one who does that. The pressure you talked about in this piece
>seems to refer to the future. Whereas the pressure you were talking about
>the other day was referring to the past. Clarify. For your information
>also,
>Darboe and co were released by a court in Banjul and not in Basse. The
>Americans even dowplayed their presence in Basse saying that it was merely
>to observe what was going on. Their prensence would not have stopped Baabaa
>Jobe. To conclude for now, I will just give you a simple statistic viz, on
>April 10 and 11 when diplomacy (from the students) met force from Yaya, 15
>children lost their lives. During the UDP ambush when force met force, one
>Yaya supporter lost his life. It should not take a rocket scientist to
>decipher this one. Watch this space. When I find time, I will show you
>again
>how you are fighting a losing battle. Before I forget, reread my earlier
>postings. I never asked you to join me and others to overthrow Yaya
>violently. What I was asking for was debate about what to do once Yaya was
>gotten rid of. I have said this a number of times. I wonder why it escaped
>you. Yeah I was frustrated that some could not see the subtle difference in
>what I was trying to say. But I was not irate and I do not hold any hard
>feeling against people for not contributing to that debate when I called
>for
>their contributions. Many people, including yourself contributed indirectly
>to the debate. Am happy with that. If you look closely at one of the
>memorandum I wrote, I called for the registration of Gambians living abroad
>to vote in presidential elections before it was brough up again by Dr.
>Saine
>and you volunteered to write something about it. I was happy to see that
>contribution eventhough it was not done in response to my call. I would not
>even address (now or later) your insinuation about me being a dictator like
>Yaya. You contradicted yourself in your own piece because you said that I
>come here to push some ideas. If I were a dictator, I would not come here
>to
>discuss issues. A few days ago, Saul registered his disagreement with my
>counseling Ousainou Darboe to go underground. Did I become irate and impose
>my ideas on Saul? I respectfully explained my reasoning and then agreed
>with
>his position. There are tons of things that go on here and other forums
>that
>I do not agree with. But I do not go around imposing my will on people.
>KB
>
>
>>From: MOMODOU BUHARRY GASSAMA <[log in to unmask]>
>>Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list
>><[log in to unmask]>
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: A challenge to those advocating violent change in The Gambia
>>            - Reply To Kebba Dampha
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:50:10 +0200
>>
>>Hi Kebba!
>>                    Thank you for taking the time to respond to my
>>posting.
>>Before going further, I need to register the fact that out of respect not
>>only for myself, the members of the L and you, I shall ignore the context
>>in
>>which you used some words. I shall also for the benefit of carrying out a
>>healthy debate refuse to debate in a manner that would negatively impact
>>on
>>the serious and important topic that we are dealing with. Those things
>>aside, please allow me to respond to some of the issues you raised. You
>>wrote:
>>
>>"Buharry, are you really serious when you ask us to come to Gambia_L and
>>tell the whole world how we are going to overthrow Yaya?"
>>
>>Where did I ask you to go into the mechanics of how you are going to
>>remove
>>Yaya? What I asked was whether you had anything apart from empty rhetoric
>>to
>>convince people to rally behind you. A simple yes would have sufficed
>>because I am not in any position to check the veracity of your statements.
>>You can tell me that you have 100 million Dollars stashed somewhere, piles
>>of arms and ammunition piled somewhere and whatever you want or you can
>>tell
>>me that you have absolutely nothing. I would only have to take your word
>>for
>>it because I am not in any position to verify what you say. Like I wrote
>>earlier, the beauty of the cyber identity is that one can be anyone or
>>possess whatever one wants. I would not expect you to detail how you are
>>going to overthrow Yaya on this very L where all kinds of government
>>agencies are subscribed. That would not be too bright of me now. Would it?
>>
>>You also wrote:
>>"Childish challenges will not also prompt us to go to Gambia unprepared.
>>So,
>>save yourself. We have nothing to prove to you or your likes."
>>
>>Like I stated in the beginning, I shall not respond to this in a way that
>>would derail the debate or in a way that would display disrespect on my
>>part. You have nothing to prove to my likes or me? Have I become different
>>just because I posted something that once differs from your point of view?
>>Just a few weeks ago you wrote: "Buharry,Thank you very much for your
>>contributions". So now I have become "those people"? If you have nothing
>>to
>>prove to my likes and me why did you come to Gambia-L to propagate your
>>cause? There are hundreds of my likes listed here. Why have you time and
>>again solicited contributions from members to draw a program for your
>>cause?
>>Why did you get irate when the hundreds of my likes refused to contribute
>>because of our conviction that violence isn't the only way to bring about
>>change, that there are other methods that should be explored to the
>>fullest
>>but have not as yet been?
>>
>>You wrote:
>>"What kind of pressure on Yaya are you talking about?"
>>
>>There are endless varieties of pressures that can be brought to bear. In
>>"Peace through Sanctions?" Recommendations for German UN Policy, Manford
>>Kulsessa and Dorethee Starck list the following types of sanctions most of
>>which can in my opinion be effectively applied to The Gambia. The types of
>>sanctions are:
>>- Diplomacy where there is closure or a reduction of diplomatic missions,
>>ban on entry of officials or exclusion from international organizations.
>>- Transport where there is a ban on air, sea and suspension of rail and
>>road
>>traffic.
>>- Communications where post and telecommunications are suspended.
>>- Development co-operation where post and telecommunications are
>>suspended.
>>- Military where military co-operation is terminated and an arms embargo
>>is
>>instituted.
>>- Finance where there is a ban on foreign assets and a ban on financial
>>transfers.
>>- Trade where embargos and boycotts are instituted.
>>- Criminal justice where criminal proceedings are instituted against
>>individuals in international tribunals.
>>
>>David Cortright and George A. Lopez point out in Carrots, Sticks and
>>Co-operation: Economic Tools of Statescraft how the US maintained an
>>"outer
>>wall" of sanctions by among other things blocking Belgrade's membership in
>>international organizations. In Nigeria under Abacha, the US banned all
>>arms
>>sales to the country and expanded its ban on US visas for the junta and
>>its
>>supporters. The EU imposed an arms embargo; travel restrictions and a
>>sports
>>boycott while the Commonwealth Ministerial Action Group suspended it from
>>membership. In the same book, the authors discussed how an Institute for
>>International Economics study shows that of all the types of sanctions
>>available, financial sanctions were the most effective. Measures such as
>>"the freezing of foreign assets, the cancellation of debt rescheduling,
>>the
>>withholding of credits and loans, and restrictions on travel, commerce and
>>communications" were shown to be very effective in bringing a regime to
>>its
>>knees especially when that state is weak. So you see Mr. Dampha, there are
>>various types of pressure that can be brought to bear.
>>
>>You also wrote:
>>"What would you do if he rigs the next elections?"
>>The art of applying and maintaining pressure is to be both proactive and
>>reactive. Proactive in that one has to have a hands-on approach and
>>thoroughly analyse the situation and predict what the opponent is going to
>>do. That way one can put measures into place to discourage him/her from
>>doing it. Reactive in that one needs to quickly react when the feared
>>situation arises preferably with contingency measures that were already
>>designed. Pressure can therefore be brought against Yaya before the
>>elections to ensure that the elections are fair and regulated and pressure
>>can be brought if he rigs the elections. Remember the short travel advice
>>of
>>the British and the impact it had on the tourism sector?
>>
>>You further wrote:
>>"Well we would rather not put the Gambians in that position in the first
>>place."
>>Wow! Thanks for your concern. However, I believe that the alternative you
>>are proposing has the potential to put them in a far worse position than
>>what you are rejecting.
>>
>>You also wrote:
>>"So am being led to the conclusion that some of you people have been
>>blinded
>>by your
>>egos. You perhaps had previously gone on record saying that you would
>>never
>>support violence. So because of that, things that should be glaring before
>>your eyes would read something else to you. Get off your high horses and
>>join the struggle."
>>
>>Excuse me, Sir! Egos? High horses? C'mon, man. Whose ego is getting the
>>best
>>of whom here? Can you understand that some of us truly believe in a
>>non-violent solution to Gambia's problems? Is it strange to you? Are you
>>demanding that we see things exactly as you do? Isn't that a bit too
>>dictatorial on your part sir? I reverse your contention that I get off my
>>high horses back to you. I think you should come down to the ground and
>>join
>>the rest of us who know that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion.
>>That is the basis of democracy, the democracy you are planning to
>>institute
>>in The Gambia. Who told you that I am not in the struggle? Just because I
>>do
>>not propagate violence does not mean that I am not in the struggle. The
>>struggle is a multi-faceted enterprise. Do you truly believe that I would
>>stick to a position just for the sake of being afraid of changing it
>>because
>>people would see me in a different light? C'mon sir. I flatteringly like
>>to
>>think of myself as a dynamic, humble and willing-to-learn person. I have
>>many a time even on this L changed my position because someone put in
>>better
>>arguments. Accepting the superiority of other ideas when they are is the
>>essence of learning and I am a learner.
>>
>>You also wrote:
>>"You should know about the struggles of ANC. Did Nelson Mandela, Oliver
>>Thambo and the senior Mbeki just sit down and wait for nonexistent
>>election
>>victories or put all their faith in the hands of the international
>>community? No. They bombed the South African government. "
>>
>>I know not only about the struggles of the ANC but that of South Africa.
>>You
>>see I like to consider myself to be a Pan-Africanist. I considered the ANC
>>a
>>sell out during my college days because of their approach. I was more
>>impressed by the PAC's "one settler, one bullet" approach. I read so many
>>books about the South African struggle. One of my best friends in college
>>was the son of Malinga, one of the founders of the PAC who died in prison.
>>I
>>was very much against Mandela's concessionary stance when he became
>>president but after analysing the situation, I was converted. I realised
>>that Mandela's stance was more practical and was better for South Africa
>>because another approach would have meant bloodshed and unwanton
>>destruction. For you to truly believe that South Africa got rid of
>>Apartheid
>>ONLY because the ANC was bombing targets within South Africa is truly
>>amazing. Do you underestimate the impact that sanctions had? External
>>sanctions coupled with the civil resistance campaign of the UDF helped to
>>bring about sweeping political transformation.
>>
>>You wrote:
>>"Oliver Thambo was in exile running the ANC machinery.Did South Africans
>>say
>>that they were not going to listen to his calls for self-defense because
>>he
>>did not live in South Africa? Did they say that they were only going to
>>listen to people like Desmond Tutu or sell-outs like Buthelezi? So my
>>friend, it is not about where you live, it is about what you bring to the
>>table."
>>
>>The ANC machinery was already in place before he went into exile. I
>>believe
>>that one can make a positive impact wherever one is. One can also make
>>devastating prescriptions knowing fully well that one is sheltered from
>>the
>>repercussions. If you truly believe that you can make a positive
>>contribution from wherever you are without jeopardising our country, power
>>to you.
>>
>>You also wrote:
>>"Not with our lives as you might have preferred. We tried diplomatic and
>>constitutional means and they did not work."
>>
>>Mr. Dampha, let me state here that I am NOT your enemy. I would not want
>>you
>>to lose your life. You are a Gambian like all other Gambians and it is
>>because of my concern for Gambians that I am concerned about the
>>repercussions of the approach you preach. I do not want violence in my
>>country because violence would lead to loss of lives and that is the last
>>thing I want. Could you please furnish us with the diplomatic and
>>constitutional means you tried so that they can be established to be
>>unworkable?
>>
>>You wrote:
>>"I contribute more than you do in trying to make sure that the culprits of
>>the massacres face justice."
>>
>>Power to you, my brother. Who said that I contribute more than you do?
>>This
>>is not a competition. I am sincerely glad to learn that "you are doing a
>>lot
>>to make sure that the culprits of the massacres face justice." That is
>>what
>>I also want and to see that you have contributed to this cause truly makes
>>me happy.
>>
>>You further wrote:
>>"What we have a problem with is people that limit our options or give
>>priority to options
>>that are clearly unworkable."
>>
>>So you have a problem with people having a different approach to a
>>problem?
>>You call Yaya a dictator. Why? Isn't it because he too has a problem with
>>people who have different approaches?
>>
>>You wrote:
>>"Like I said yesterday (keep repeating myself. But I will gladly do so
>>until
>>it sinks into your heads)"
>>
>>Please, please do. Some of us, especially me, are not that clever. So you
>>might definitely have to keep hammering home your point before it sinks. I
>>was not blessed to be as clever as you.
>>
>>You wrote:
>>"Why don't you want to believe that if a bloodless coup can be pulled in
>>1994 another one can be pulled in 2000?"
>>
>>Let's make a deal here. I believe that a bloodless coup can be pulled off.
>>Do you believe that one or more factors can interfere with your "bloodless
>>coup" and turn it into a disaster? Things can always go wrong even in the
>>most planned of events.
>>
>>You wrote:
>>"If you were attacked by a wild animal today and you have a loaded gun in
>>your hand, would you opt to extend your hand to it in the name of
>>diplomacy
>>or would you blow its brains out?"
>>
>>That depends. If it happens in a vacuum, that is, I am alone with the
>>animal; I would gladly blow its brains out. However, as I said earlier,
>>events you are prescribing won't happen in vacuum and there are a lot of
>>people who might get hurt in the process. The situation by the way is not
>>as
>>acute as to leave the options you painted in your scenario. There are
>>still
>>some options that can be explored.
>>
>>You further wrote:
>>"If your principles of non-violence are so dear to your heart that you do
>>not want to join us, fine with us. But please do not demoralize our people
>>back home by telling them that the ballot box is the only means Yaya can
>>be
>>removed from office."
>>
>>Why can't you believe that I also want the best thing to happen to The
>>Gambia? We might have different prescriptions for solving our country's
>>problems but that does not make us enemies. The solution to The Gambia's
>>problems as mentioned earlier is multi-pronged and all on the various
>>fences
>>should not consider each other enemies. Where did I say that the ballot
>>box
>>is the only way of removing Yaya?
>>
>>You further wrote:
>>". people like me have recently called upon the UDP supporters to arm
>>themselves and not let their guard down during the coming campaign season.
>>We are not calling upon you to leave your cozy existence in Europe to go
>>fight in The Gambia neither are we calling upon your unarmed civilian
>>brothers to go and confront Yaya."
>>
>>I ask you where those people are going to get the arms. I further ask you
>>where they are going to get licences for those arms because you surely
>>wouldn't want them to face heavily armed security personnel with stones,
>>sticks etc.? The civilian UDP supporters you are calling upon to be armed
>>and confrontational are my fellow Gambians and brothers and sisters. For
>>your information, I am not living a cosy existence. I am hustling man,
>>like
>>most Gambians abroad.
>>
>>You also wrote:
>>"What do you want us to tell the UDP? To lie down and let BaaBaa Jobe walk
>>all over them? Or like some of your heroes, pretend that nothing
>>undeserving
>>happened to the UDP entourage? Or like others, pretend that this was not
>>orchestrated by Yaya and his bunch of bandits? We would continue to
>>advocate
>>the removal of Yaya through violent means until pacifists like you come up
>>with better means of removing him. If you are waiting for your heroes on
>>the
>>ground to advocate the removal of Yaya through violent means, then you
>>will
>>never see that and therefore you will never be a convert."
>>
>>No. No. No. Who is pretending that nothing happened to the UDP? Who is
>>talking about letting Baba Jobe walk over the UDP? The very presence of
>>the
>>American and UK ambassadors in the area where the UDP entourage was held
>>played a significant part in their release. Pressure, man, pressure. If
>>pressure is strategically courted and applied, the results might amaze
>>you.
>>BTW, who are my heroes on the ground?
>>
>>You also wrote:
>>"The way you help the situation, is to do like Colly, Saul , Matarr and
>>others and expose Baabaa Jobe and Yaya for the cowards they are and urge
>>UDP
>>to be more vigilant."
>>
>>That is not the only way to help the situation. That is one of various
>>ways
>>to help and I say thanks to those mentioned for providing the information
>>because it is really revealing. I am not saying that the UDP should not be
>>vigilant. What I am saying is that the UDP should not send 10 hens to
>>fight
>>100 lions.
>>
>>You finally wrote:
>>".send a silly petition to the international community."
>>
>>Thanks for sharing your views on how you see our petition. However, that
>>petition, the demonstrations around the world, the action of people on the
>>ground played an important part in bringing the events of April to the
>>attention of the international community. There you see, pressure sir.
>>Thanks and sorry for such a long posting.
>>
>>Buharry.
>>
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