John,

That was my thought, salvation doesn't equate forgiveness of trespasses,
at least in this context. Therefore indeed, our lack of forgiving,
produces our trespasses to not be dealt with. Granted, scripture is
interpreted by scripture. That is verses are taken first in context, and
also flavored  by the intent of  other scripture and not strictly by the
printed word. However, the  statement Jesus made of forgiving others or
our issues won't be forgiven, is pretty blatantly straightforward. So for
it to be true, salvation mustn't be applied in this flavor of trespass or
else it either makes Jesus a liar or other parts of scripture
contradictory. The Word is kind of like a bobsled at times. We begin our
trek down the middle of the runway, and as the Word guides us as the walls
of the bobsled chute, we are pushed in a direction and when we read
another precept that pushes back to God's will in another area, it is
again like riding the wall of another turn in the runway. The only
difference is, it is the runway, or God's Word that is actually straight,
and it is our path that zig zags about as we tend to bobble about in life.

Brad


on 08:22 PM 7/28/2005, John Schwery said:
Brad, I believe that what our Lord said is talking about our
fellowship with him.  I don't equate forgiveness with salvation.  I
believe we can be saved and undealt with sin.  I don't believe that
this state continues for years.  Yes, it is one of those apparent
contradictions that takes study to understand.

earlier, Brad D, wrote:
 >How do we explain Jesus explanation  of if we do not forgive other's
sins
 >against us, he will not forgive  ours? And does forgiveness equate
 >salvation? Or can we be saved and yet have unforgiven sins to be dealt
 >with? Curious to the apparent contradiction in scripture then.
 >
 >Brad
 >
 >on 06:06 PM 7/28/2005, John Schwery said:
 >I believe that forgiveness is unconditional in that it does not break
 >our relationship with God.  Unconfessed sin can break our fellowship
 >with Him, however.  I believe that if anyone adds anything to
 >salvation, then, grace is no longer grace, but works have been added,
 >perverting the gospel.  This doesn't mean that I believe that we can
 >sin and get away with it, but sin does not break our relationship
 >with Him.  If it does, then, all of us are toast.  Notice that in
 >Psalm 51, David did not say to the Lord, restore unto me Thy
 >salvation, but restore unto me, the Joy of Thy salvation.  When our
 >fellowship is broken with the Lord, we no longer have that peace that
 >passes all understanding or the joy of the Lord.
 >
 >earlier, Vinny Samarco, wrote:
 >  >Hi Brad,
 >  >I am glad you brought this point up.  I have heard of too many
 >ministries
 >  >who make God out to be this spineless lovy-dovey blob that will let
 >everyone
 >  >do anything, and require absolutely nothing from them.  This is truly
a
 >  >perversion of the gospel.  I think most
 >  >Christians would be totally shocked if they would ever do a complete
 >study
 >  >on all the if's and buts in the bible.  They would see that after
Jesus
 >  >reveals himself to us, forgives our sins, etc. there are some
 >requirements
 >  >that The Lord requires of all his people.  I'm not talking about
 >  >self-imposed works, I am talking about biblical requirements.
 >  >Vinny
 >  >----- Original Message -----
 >  >From: "Brad D" <[log in to unmask]>
 >  >To: <[log in to unmask]>
 >  >Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 5:50 AM
 >  >Subject: Conditional forgiveness??
 >  >
 >  >
 >  > > "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father
will
 >also
 >  > > forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,
neither
 >will
 >  > > your Father forgive your trespasses."-- Matthew 6:14-15
 >  > >
 >  > > This Jesus taught his disciples, believers, not those who opposed
his
 >  > > message; purpose;  and existence. These words just after
instructing
 >them
 >  > > how to pray, and continued after these verses to instruct them on
 >conduct
 >  > > and attitudes. Despite what we've come to know as "The Lord's
Prayer"
 >  > > stating "and forgive us our trespass as we forgive those who
trespass
 >  > > against us", Jesus felt that precept needing to be blatantly noted
 >after
 >  > > the prayer. We indeed find freedom in forgiving others, but as
 >with  the
 >  > > message of the Word, "it is not about us", it in this case is
about
 >giving
 >  > > grace to others, just as we've received grace unto ourselves. God
 >knows
 >  > > that we have enough trouble with that concept, that he holds our
 >  > > forgiveness randsome. This indeed sounds conditional to me.
 >  > >
 >  > > Brad
 >  > >
 >
 >John

John