Brad,
Are you saying that I wasn't subtle enough?  Well, imagine that!  And I
thought that I was the epitome of tact.  GRIN!  I guess that I'll have to
work on my approach a little more.

You know Brad, altar calls are a controversial thing.  We don't have them
very often either.  I have no clue if our reasons are anywhere near what
your present pastor's reasons are, but I"m not sure that that point, at
least, is necessarily a bad thing.  As far as the breast cancer thing,
well, there are people who interpret scripture that way:  John 9, for
example and 2 Corinthians 12:7-10.  I think that you're being stretched
Brad to examine your positions?  That's not necessarily a bad thing.  I can
understand wanting to leave, because disagreeing is uncomfortable, but be
sure to play with it and get all the growth out of it you can.

As for the animal sacrifices, maybe they just need a better barbicue
pit!  Maybe, if you donated one as a going away present, they'd
reconsider.  GRIN!
Kathy, who is running from Brads outstretched barbicue skewer, even as she
types!!

At 09:01 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
>Kathy,
>
>Someplace smaller? That is where I was before we moved to Texas, and
>returned when we first got back. It doesn't matter to me really big or
>small. I mean I'd be a liar if I didn't say I love playing with extremely
>talented musicians/singers at the larger church in Texas, that was just
>awesome, but that isn't what makes worship. We've had just as good if not
>more intimate worship in the living room of some of our friends with just a
>guitar, hands raised, and hearts wrenched with sincere worship. I think
>perhaps God is benching me for a while and at the same time making me OK
>with it. Perhaps he is changing my position on the team... that is unknown
>yet, he is the coach and I'm waiting for my orders. Regarding doctrinal
>difference? Well Kathy? That was pathetic lol You might has well just asked
>right out hahahahaah. Either way I don't mind. You see they don't believe
>in animal sacrifices, they say they went out when Jesus was crucified  and
>well.... hahahahahahhahahahaha had you scared there a second eh? Seriously
>there is a serious deficiency of spirit led anything. I mean where I come
>from you first pray about something and hold fast for God's direction, but
>there are much head minded direction here. As well elements of the Holy
>Spirit such as believe in tongues is sarcastically chuckled at and outright
>stated they do not believe it exists. Also  things like sickness. We had a
>lady in the church who overcame breast cancer and  the church on a series
>on testimonies or something like that, showed an interview with her
>explaining how god gave her this cancer and etc. I'm sorry but I'm not sold
>on God afflicting us with sickness when his son who is meant to be the
>perfect personality of the  Father in flesh form, and he healed those with
>illness and had compassion on them. Bad things happen to good people, but
>that doesn't equate god giving them to us, but rather they come to us as we
>live in a fallen world and he is there for us to get us through them. Also
>the fact they are a seeker friendly church. Preaching God's salvation and
>all and then dismissing folks as if "shows over". In the beginning of the
>service you are invited to fill out a communication card to express your
>needs or comments. Can you imagine someone being convicted in their heart
>through a word from God and then wanting to do something about it right
>now, when the time is ripe, and then having to fill out a card for the
>pastor to call you later in the week? What if someone was on the fence and
>just wanted to talk or pray with someone? There is no mention of that. No
>alter calls because I believe they think they would be seen as pressuring
>folks to come up front. Although I have to admit there has been a sort of
>call to the front for prayer as a group towards life direction as we go
>through a series on goals for your life and etc. That is something anyway.
>I'm use to a bit more meat, and helping people where they need meeting and
>not the impersonal approach. Like I say it is probably just god's
>repositioning me in life where I need to be.
>
>Brad
>
>
>
>
>
>At 12:05 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
> >Hey Brad,
> >Do you suppose that you might be called to something small?  I know that
> >small churches don't have the worship band approach, mostly because they
> >don't have the talent, or maybe I should say people,  for it, but it's
> >something to consider.  Of course, nosy me is curious about the doctrinal
> >differences thing too, but I'll refrain from asking.  I'll just
> >hint!  Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, GRIN, GRIN!  Tsk, tsk, tsk!
> >Kathy
> >
> >
> >At 11:38 PM 2/8/2005, you wrote:
> > >Kathy,
> > >
> > >Yes that has been prayed about. And to be perfectly honest if it was
> just a
> > >matter of that, we'd stay, however  there are doctrinal issues that differ
> > >which I thought would be OK to deal with  when they come up. But I see
> > >differently now,  I don't  plan to try to change them, and visa versa. As
> > >much as I enjoy going to church(s), that is get something from a message
> > >and etc. I foundationally believe it has a larger purpose of serving and
> > >helping others to grow and come to Christ. It is up to us individually to
> > >keep and maintain the relationship with God and church can be a
> kicker, but
> > >not the only link. This too is why I suppose we jumped in as we did, to
> > >serve. I really feel time is needed to step back and take a deep breath as
> > >there maybe a change in ministry focus down the road and this could
> well be
> > >a part of all that too. But I honestly appreciate your concern and input.
> > >
> > >Brad
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >At 08:05 AM 2/8/2005, you wrote:
> > > >Brad,
> > > >Just a thought.  If this is a young church, is it possible that your
> > > >maturity is what is needed.  In other words, be sure that the Lord is
> > > >encouraging you to move on and that you aren't just moving on
> because you
> > > >are uncomfortable.  They could be the sand that the Lord has placed in
> > your
> > > >shell to make a pearl.  Remember, Growth in God is all about leaving the
> > > >comfort zone.  I could say more, but I think that you get my drift.
> > > >Kathy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >Kathy,
> > > > >
> > > > >Ouch ouch ouch!! lol. I understand your point, agree too. Basically
> > we did
> > > > >jump in too quick, thought in part some of the doctrinal issues were
> > > > >tolerable,  as well the statement of the church's intentions were not
> > > > >reality when totally involved. That fortunately is changing but
> > > nonetheless
> > > > >the fit you talked of is just the issue no matter how on target
> they are
> > > > >with the statements they made. They are a young church and much
> growing
> > > > >needed. Fortunately they have a pastor who is willing to look at
> himself
> > > > >and see changes needed as well and not too proud to admit it when
> he is
> > > > >wrong. The hole left wen I leave indeed I trust is not a major one, I
> > > don't
> > > > >think it will as there are others that can fill in the tasky type
> > > stuff and
> > > > >one person who has led regularly before. This is why I gave from
> > March to
> > > > >May to gradually wean myself out so others can do stuff. It will be
> > > less an
> > > > >issue other than eventually those we are somewhat close to will find
> > > out we
> > > > >are leaving and that coupled with the many who have left may cause
> head
> > > > >scratches. What is also difficult is we have a family similar to
> > ours who
> > > > >are involved with worship and make up a fair share of members on any
> > given
> > > > >Sunday, and they too I believe are hanging on by a thread. My fear
> > is once
> > > > >they get wind of our intentions that they too will leave and the
> worship
> > > > >team will be skeletonized. The extension from March to May I
> believe is
> > > > >direction from God as I was full well intended to get it over with in
> > > a few
> > > > >short weeks.
> > > > >
> > > > >Brad
> > > > >o
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >At 07:23 AM 2/7/2005, you wrote:
> > > > > >Well Brad,
> > > > > >I pretty much gave my opinion of getting involved in church in my
> > > > answer to
> > > > > >Phil.  It's a bet conservative, I guess, but it is comfortable for
> > > me.  To
> > > > > >be truthful, I had thought that my question had gotten lost in siber
> > > > space,
> > > > > >never to return.  You can see from the date that it was actually
> > > posted on
> > > > > >January 29, so I've been a bit caught off guard.  The reason that I
> > > asked
> > > > > >the question, however, is because I did sence, as you relayed your
> > > > > >involvement with both churches since returning to Wosconsin, that,
> > > > perhaps,
> > > > > >you were moving a bit too quickly into a leadership position.  I
> > > know that
> > > > > >you are gifted in music and your heart is to offer it to the Lord
> > where
> > > > > >ever he leads you.  Your heart attitude was never in question for
> > > me, only
> > > > > >the timing.  By saying this, I don't mean to sound like I am
> > judging, or
> > > > > >pointing a finger and saying that you did something wrong, so I hope
> > > that
> > > > > >you don't take it that way, but I do think that it is good to step
> > > > back and
> > > > > >examine doctrines  and practices of a church community before
> getting
> > > > > >involved, not just for your own sake, but for theirs.  If they
> become
> > > > > >dependent upon your leadership skills, and it isn't a good fit, you
> > > > > >yourself mey not realize the size of the hole that you will be
> leaving
> > > > > >behind when you feel led to move on.  I pray that my approach is
> > > meant to
> > > > > >cause as little hurt as possible for both sides.
> > > > > >Kathy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >At 05:28 PM 2/5/2005, you wrote:
> > > > > > >Kathy,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Searching for politically correct answer sensing a set up lol.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >*rubbing hands together before setting them on the keypad*
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >First let me say, I am not against organized gatherings of
> > > > believers, nor
> > > > > > >am I against calling it a church. I mean it is a matter of
> semantics
> > > > > > >anyway. We go to cake walks and I don't see any cakes walking
> > > about, but
> > > > > > >they are still delicious. Or here, just the other day, my
> wife, she
> > > > > says...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >"Don't jump all over me!"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I swear!  My feet never left the floor!! Ever heard someone say...
> > > "She
> > > > > > >jumped down my throat on that one!" Very difficult imagery here,
> > very
> > > > > > >difficult indeed. Especially  if we take some things literally. So
> > > > > "church"
> > > > > > >to me is the people, who tend to collect in buildings of same
> > name but
> > > > > > >hardly the same thing. I mean buildings are made of cement
> > blocks and
> > > > > > >mortar... well I was called a blockhead the other day so perhaps
> > > > there is
> > > > > > >some similarities... I don't know. Anyway, the point is church
> > > indeed is
> > > > > > >the people and not the place.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >The question is, "how long do you wait, when exploring a new
> church,
> > > > > before
> > > > > > >you get involved?"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Well as Phil noted there are two sides to that proverbial coin, a
> > > > > servant's
> > > > > > >side, and the leadership's side. We too had people wanting to jump
> > > > in and
> > > > > > >do music after being there only one Sunday... Geesh I hope we
> didn't
> > > > sound
> > > > > > >that bad... anyway, yes we don't know who they are, where they
> came
> > > > > from or
> > > > > > >what their beliefs are on such items. I mean get a low key tongue
> > > talker
> > > > > > >who suddenly feels led to speak his piece during praise and
> worship
> > > > in the
> > > > > > >midst of a room full of  Baptists, and you got all kinds of
> > shades or
> > > > > red a
> > > > > > >happening. From blushes to heads ready to blow.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >As for the servant's side? There are similar considerations, or
> > > should I
> > > > > > >say "discernments". For instance here they seem to have a need for
> > > > praise
> > > > > > >and worship folks, or so I thought in myself... wrong. They
> > could well
> > > > > have
> > > > > > >done without me, but I wanted to involve myself because that is
> > what I
> > > > > like
> > > > > > >to do. I do not care  to just sit back but like to get involved in
> > > > an area
> > > > > > >I can contribute. And after all, this church seemed to be
> > > > > contemporary, did
> > > > > > >messages on salvation, seemed unstuffy, and seemed to  have a
> heart
> > > > > for the
> > > > > > >community. And it does. However, the doctrinal differences I
> have I
> > > > > ignored
> > > > > > >at the time to find a church nearby, one that we could be involved
> > > > within
> > > > > > >the community this time and not travel. And, seeker friendly? Hey
> > > it is
> > > > > > >good to catch those seeking God. The problem is with that there is
> > > > > > >compromise. I won't go into detail but there are issues I just do
> > > > not feel
> > > > > > >is part of God's word. So to really sum  up this dribble with an
> > > answer,
> > > > > > >I'd say "until God leads you to get involved". How do I say this
> > > without
> > > > > > >sounding egotistical or positionally Pius, because I'm not.
> > > Involved has
> > > > > > >it's own intensities. I mean jumping in to play music is less
> > > dependent
> > > > > > >upon than folding service pamphlets. Now now now now now now. now
> > > . Stop
> > > > > > >it! Don't take that wrong. I truly believe we all work
> together and
> > > > > each is
> > > > > > >an intricate part of itno matter what is seen or unseen, but
> finding
> > > > > > >someone to fold pamphlets is a bit easier than anyone who is
> > > willing to
> > > > > > >embarrass themselves in front of hundreds of folks by playing an
> > > > > > >instrument. I mean I could become involved folding pamphlets and
> > > > drop dead
> > > > > > >and they'd mourn for me and hardly discuss who could take my
> > > > > place,  but if
> > > > > > >one is leaned on to sing, lead others, play an instrument, work up
> > > > songs,
> > > > > > >work up schedules for singers and musicians, and so forth, the
> > > prospects
> > > > > > >become in the form of a smaller ratio. That is why involvement is
> > > to be
> > > > > > >followed by God's leading and not override it. Sometimes patience,
> > > as we
> > > > > > >discussed need be exercised and not create an Ishmil
> > > > > (spelling???)There are
> > > > > > >times people fill in because there is a need, a hole needing to be
> > > > > plugged,
> > > > > > >and then there are times when things move on to where someone
> who is
> > > > > called
> > > > > > >to be the real person need come in.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >No quote, "church", is perfect, we are human, we have issues,
> > > > jealousies,
> > > > > > >egos, selfish desires, able to take offense, fears, desires and
> > > > agendas we
> > > > > > >see which leaders don't, and after all we are right aren't
> we?? Huh?
> > > > Sure
> > > > > > >we are, I think lolAren't we? Sure we are. Hmm? . There is no set
> > > > time, a
> > > > > > >month, six months or the like but there is a time of proving and a
> > > > time of
> > > > > > >knowing you are where God wants you to be. If not I could put
> > all the
> > > > > names
> > > > > > >of all the churches in a bucket and reach in and pick one. I
> > > really like
> > > > > > >the people in this house of worship... see dad, not a church
> *smile*
> > > > just
> > > > > > >funnin' ya, and they are all good people, but it has been for some
> > > > > time now
> > > > > > >I've known it was not where God wanted us to be, but we stayed
> > to help
> > > > > > >anyway, and we are still staying until end of May to not
> thwart any
> > > > > > >momentum currently enjoyed by folks stepping forward to help. I
> > do not
> > > > > feel
> > > > > > >a rush to  attend or be members of another church for the sake of
> > > > being in
> > > > > > >one, I think there is a time of refocussing, and building up
> > from the
> > > > > > >resources we have here and then set out. I am also of the belief
> > > to not
> > > > > > >forsake the assembly, because not only do we learn and grow as a
> > > > result of
> > > > > > >that assembly but others may as well from what you have to offer.
> > > It may
> > > > > > >not seem so, but I am very bothered by the need for the decision
> > > > which has
> > > > > > >been made, first because I don't wish to lead anyone up the garden
> > > path
> > > > > > >regarding our commitment to helping out. I mean I value commitment
> > > very
> > > > > > >highly and feel I've put myself and family in a position of not
> > > > letting my
> > > > > > >yeses be yeses and my no's be no's.  More bothersome is that I put
> > > aside
> > > > > > >what God might want and jumped in on my own reasoning. Perhaps
> > it was
> > > > > meant
> > > > > > >to be as such and God is just repositioning. There is no set
> time to
> > > > > > >decide. I know, you as a pastor's spouse and involved in
> church as a
> > > > > > >calling will have perhaps a different vantage point. So as Colin
> > > > Rae, the
> > > > > > >country singer says..."that's my story and I'm sticking to it!"
> > > lol. Now
> > > > > > >aren't you glad you asked???
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Brad