quotes from email by Vicky
> Have recently been thinking that I have some what of a jaded attitude.

Dear Vicki,

funny you should use the term Jaded in reference to church because there is
a book called "Jaded" that I bought here in the UK in which a number of
people express their feelings on the subject of how they feel about church.
You or should I say we are not alone.

>But in a properly functioning church,

Try saying this, "lets go to family", doesnt that simply sound wrong! Well
yes it doesnt make sense. Family is closer to the true idea of what church
is than a place, or a meeting. Essentially we are the church, you are
church, I am church and we meet together as church.

We all know that church is the people dont we, after all we are taught that
at church. No, you see I have used the word "church" as it should never be
used. There is no "at" church, we "are" church.

This also means that there is only one church, and all who are children of
God are in it all of the time. There is no time during the day when I am not
in church. The Church of Jesus Christ simply is, and we are all part of it
if we are beleivers.

The implications are pretty radical if you let them hit you...
think of the phrase "church attendance", it only makes sense if you use the
word church to refer to a place or a meeting. Try my old trick, let us see
if using the word family in place of the word church helps us to understand
how it doesnt make sense. Ok here goes. "family attendance". See it
obviously does not make sense.

What of the concept of church membership, meaning membership of a church.
Again this idea is using the word "church" to refer to something, a building
or a group of people that was never conceived in the New Testament when the
word ekklesia (the greek word for church) is used.

I will leave "church leadership", as an excercise for the reader ;-)

I want to throw in a mention of the word "pastor". Notice that the Ephesians
5, ministries of Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Teacher and Evangelist, describe
callings. They describe how a person relates to other people, its in their
character. I will use Phil as an example, I am sure that he will not mind me
saying that he has a prophetic calling, and this is characterised by his
willingness to confront, or present the Lords truth to people despite what
others may think or say. Phil has that blunt honesty about him, which when
the Lord uses him, becomes a cutting edge. It is his character that makes
him a prophet and the fact that the Lord has formed that character in him
through the whole of his life so that he can relate to other people as a
prophet of the Lord Jesus.

The fact is that the word "pastor" refers to someone who has a caring heart
for others. It is in their very nature. In truth it has nothing to do with
leadership; I was surprised to discover that in actual fact the gift of
"administrations" as listed in the list of spiritual gifts is that of
leading and organising such as would be used in a business or government
(but not forgetting Jesus is the head of the church)

So remembering that only good trees bear good fruit and bad trees do not
bear good fruit. We are taught to judge a tree by its fruit. If anyone
claiming to be a pastor does not naturally receive, hear out, respect, have
compassion for, demonstrate empathy for, any other human that they meet,
then they dont have the character of a pastor. Without that caring heart as
the essence of their being then then they simply are not a "pastor" as God
defines it.

Now it is not right to stop there, if you see a tree that is not bearing
good fruit, should it not be cut down and thrown into the fire. Ok perhaps
that is a bit strong, but surely we should not be eating of the fruit of a
bad tree.

Please dont get up set with me, hear me out.... I think I am being logical
and sensible.

Step 1. A "pastor" is a person with a caring heart who serves others and
will go out of their way to look after sheep in a practical manner. So
therefore those who are called to be nurses, or carers, or relief agency
workers are "pastors".
Step 2, Therefore it follows that who call themselves pastors as part of a
church organisation in which they are the CEO are not fulfilling the role of
a biblical pastor at all really.
Step 3 this means that God did not appoint them to that position.
Step 4 I realise that that makes the whole work of a "church" that is run by
a "pastor" since it was not Gods idea.
Step 5, dont partake of that fruit, teaching, covering etc, none of this is
Gods idea of a good thing.

> should there not be a place of service for every member of the body of
> Christ?    And what about the verses in Hebrews 10:24-25.  New Living puts
> it this way.
>
> Think of ways to encourage one another to outbursts of love and good
> deeds.
> And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but
> encourage and warn each other, especially now that the day of his coming
> back again is drawing near.
> I like that outburst of good deeds.

Ah yes, this is great you have pointed out the very thing that people
usually misunderstand about this verse, the context. The purpose of meeting
together in this verse is not prayer, praise, learning, but it is to "spur
one another on to 'outbursts of love and good deeds' ". This verse was not
written for the purpose of telling people who do not go to church that they
ought to which is how it is most often used.

So I think back to all of those church meetings I have been to. Have you
ever been to a service where that was really the purpose of the meeting. I
myself have never been to a church service that was for the purpose of then
going out and doing something like ministering to the poor. In my experience
those sorts of meeting tend to be in smaller groups who meet to go and do
something.

> We won't have that perfect church until heaven, but the church today is

ah... Surely Gods true church is the one that he said he would build. "I
will build my church" I think he said. Those that are free in Christ are
able to share their gifts and minister and serve as God calls. They have the
time and the freedom to grow in relationship with Christ and live and do
what he is calling them to do. Those who are free and obedient to the Lord
also dont really care what people think of them so they get on with it.

The problem is when you or I as an individual, one of Gods children who are
free, choose to submit to a nominated person or leader or organisation, then
you find that your freedom is limited, the relationships are no way as deep
as they should be etc etc etc. Our freedom is also stolen from us by the
enemy who sows seeds in our minds of fears and doubts that limit us in doing
what the Lord would like us to do.

> severely hampered, and misses out because members of the body aren't in
> their places erving, sharing their God-given gifts, ministering and being
> ministered to..  I'm not just talking about the up front people that we
> might see every Sunday like the pastor or the worship teams.  But so that
> I
> don't get on a soap box, wonder what others of you think?
>
> I'm sure glad that we can assemble here on the net.  The physical assembly
> is still, however, important.

Of course it is important for us to meet together. Gods idea of us meeting
together is that we grow and develop in relation ship to one another and to
him. This an active process of interacting with each other in the context of
our daily lives. When Jesus walked the earth he went and he taught others to
be travelling around and fellowshipping with everyone as he went in towns
and villages all over the country. (i.e. not the same group week in week
out, that was never the intention or the model proposed)

ah now, this is a bit of a "sacred cow" of the church and so I would like to
present an alternative idea.... consider for a moment all of the great men
and women of God over the past centuries who have had their faith developed
and cemented and their fellowship with Christ blessed through harsh
experiences such as prison for example. Not that I am advocating solitary
confinement as the way forward I am just pointing out that many of the most
productive times in which God works on our characters and brings forth
spirutual growth and maturity tend to be those times when we are in the
wilderness, often times when we are on our own. Can you agree?

If a hot coal is removed from a fire grate and is all on its own then it
will get cold. Have you heard this one? But it is not neccessarily true. If
the fire in the fire-place is not going very well at all, it is dying and
turning to ashes, and the Lord Jesus picks up a struggling hurting coal from
the fringes, the edge of the fire. It is a whole different story if the Lord
Jesus picks that coal up and places it in the middle of a blow torch flame.

thats the place to be, even if it is lonely, a little uncomfortable, and
hot!

yours in Christ

Keith