It truly is a puzzler isn't it.  I guess that sort of screws up the idea of
being eternally save doesn't it.  My sister is a Baptist and that is what
she believes.  If Jesus knew Judas would never attain salvation why then did
he make him a disciple in the first place.  God certainly could have sent
him help during his depression to cause him to live and see the rising of
Our Lord and receive salvation?  Perhaps he was predestined as was the
Jesus' mother for this fate.  She was predestined after all.  However as
they didn't fully realize their positions in the greater scheme of things,
well, perhaps Mary did, we don't understand our own predestony.  Another
question to ponder.  If Judas was predestined to fall and to fail then he
truly had no choice which causes him to even be a more sorrowful character.
----- Original Message -----
From: MV <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:43 AM
Subject: Poor Judas


> Angel,
>
> I agree we are predestined to use our free will as we both made mention in
> an earlier post and I'm not even Catholic *big cheezy smile*, actually I'm
> probably a denominational mutt having grown up Lutheran, married in a
> Moravian church, served in a couple non-denominational churches, as well
as
> one inter-denominational church, recently came from a Baptist church and
> now attending an Assembly of God that seems to have balance apart from
> other O G churches I'll not make mention here. I've moved a few times in
my
> life which caused me to look about and search out churches making a
> difference and teaching the word. Anyway that wasn't my point of this
email
> I guess I just realized I guess I'm a freewiller as to grasping the Word
> for what it is and not so much a denominational marriage, which there is
> nothing wrong with that, I guess I just hadn't taken that road. Anyway My
> real point is, actually there are two, are...
>
> Point #1, you mentioned about we are predestined to freewill. But also
said...
>
> "This is why I have always felt sorry for Judas.  He was the one God had
> planned to betray Jesus."
>
> Are you saying he was predestined but we're not? I think I had wondered
> this here before on list that if Judas hadn't chose to follow through,
> would someone else have stepped up?  I'm thinking of another person at a
> critical time of history who had a choice. Ester when her uncle told her
> upon her unwillingness to plead to the king on behalf of the Jews...
> "For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise
> for the Jews from another place and you and your father's house will
> perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a
time
> as this?"-- Ester 4:14
>
> So it appears as Ester had a choice and God would see to it this thing
> would be accomplished one way or the other. Such could also be said for
> Judas I wonder.
>
> Point #2 is  I always had questioned whether or not Judas was actually a
> gonner spiritually. I mean it seemed unfair, especially if he was somehow
> destined to be the trigger man of Christ's crucifixion. If you look he
felt
> remorse, gave the 30 pieces of silver back and guilt took over so much so
> he hung himself. I had, in my thoughts,  questioned preachers when they
> mentioned Judas is in hell for his betrayal. To me it seemed he must have
> had a first rate relationship with Christ to be  among the twelve, and
with
> all who were after Christ for healing folks right under their noses, on
the
> Sabbath yet, they had good reason to go after him without a betray or so
> that will be another question for me to wonder. However, after reading and
> looking up some definitions of  the Scripture in Strong's Greek/Hebrew, I
> see that Judas indeed, by Jesus' words  is in fact a gonner. Jesus said...
>
> "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have
> given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of
> perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled." --John 17:12
>
> Looking up the word parish in the original it is...
>
> NT:622 apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from NT:575 and the base of NT:3639;
> to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or
figuratively:
> KJV - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
>
> Looking up the word "perdition" it is defined...
> NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622;
> ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):
> KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish,
pernicious
> ways, waste.
>
> I suppose the latter word could be stretched as to say he only died
> physically as that is one of it's definitions but that coupled with
> the  prior word being "fully" destroyed, and the fact the two words are
> connected as a derivative, gives connotation Judas won't be among those we
> see in eternity with God. It is difficult to see how a man who could walk
> with Christ as his disciple has fallen, and then look at our own lives and
> consider we will not fall eternally despite our sin and levels of betrayal
> if we accept, believe and trust in Christ. The one guy who you'd expect
> to  have the pardon of pardons, especially if this was a destined position
> for him somehow, would be Judas. His very part in history provided the
> segue for all mankind to have eternal life despite sin. It is definitely
> perplexing to me.
>
> Brad
>
>
>
> Brad
>
>    Nothing else ruins the truth like stretching it