Keith,
There seems to be a lot of finger pointing and judgmentalism in this
post.  I submit to you that what you are looking for can be found in many
local churches, especially when you focus on serving God, rather than all
of our failings.  It would be nice if those who know how to do church right
would be willing to step in and get their hands dirty in the rebuilding
process rather than sit home and criticize.  Also, you strike me as a
person who may not enjoy organized anything and that attitude may, I said
"May", be coloring your thinking!  You know, you will have to live with
many of those for eternity that you are criticizing here on earth.  You may
want to begin working on that now and have less of an adjustment then.
Kathy




At 08:06 PM 1/25/2005, you wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>I wanted to let you know that I have been encouraged to share my thoughts
>and get stuck in to this topic because not only is it dear to my heart but
>I would like to encourage those who do not have regular attendance in a
>denominational organisation to be comfortable and secure in the knowledge
>that Jesus is not at all peturbed by your non-conformity, indeed I know he
>welcomes it because it means that as and when he asks us to do something or
>help someone for him we might have the free time to do it.
>
>Knowing that there is a biblical basis for cutting loose was a real breath
>of fresh air for me, it set me free to be the real me. Here at last I find a
>forum on e-church where people are comfortable to express these views and
>live them out. Of course being church over the internet has its limitations,
>but in many ways it is a very valid way of expressing and sharing our faith
>dont you think?
>
>My own experience includes something else worth mentioning that should
>concern us.
>I was in a "church" in which the elders were doing a number of things that
>were wrong.
>One day I rebelled against them by taking time to apologise to God on their
>behalf, knowing that their behaviour grieved him, and also I did not take
>communion that day. This was in recognition of the fact that I knew that
>many present were not right with God that day. The day I rebelled my life
>changed immensely, you see by that act I came out from the ungodly spiritual
>covering of
>those men, and in the following two weeks had an unusual experience in that
>I made over 80 pages of notes from
>personal  revelation and insights  from the Lord. I really did begin to hear
>the Lord for myself  in a new way as soon as I broke free of my membership
>and its inherant submission to the leaders concerned.
>
>Many people talk about the spiritual covering that being part of a church is
>supposed to give you but to be honest they do not really know what is
>happening in the spiritual realm. I can tell you from many prayer ministry
>times that idolising a person in any context opens you up spiritually to
>take on board the same spiritual character as that which is idolised (i.e.
>demonic spirits are contageous through personal idolatry) My experience is
>that that any spiritual covering that comes through an organised church
>particularly one that has a clergy/laity divide is rarely positive on
>balance.
>
>If you have ever had any dealings with members of well known cults you will
>be familiar with the way the group-think, the culture, beleifs and spirit of
>those organisations seems to be really strong and very difficult to break
>through with the light of the true Gospel of Jesus. The cult has definitely
>made a demonic-stronghold in their life and thinking. The stonghold is a
>fortified house of lies and falsehoods that the member has taken to heart,
>and it is through these lies that demonic spirits can exhert their
>influence. I regret to say that in christian organisations, although one
>hopes that the Gospel message is accepted, it appears that  the strength of
>the group-think and religious culture is equally as spiritaully real and
>strong and difficult to
>break through by anyone who thinks differently or does not submit passively
>to it all. Religious strongholds are just as real within Christendom, but
>they are harder to overcome because they have that appearance of
>acceptability, that "form of godliness that denys the power thereof" to
>quote Pauls letter to timothy.
>
>I beleive that the best true Godly covering that you can have is though
>friends who are prophetic and will hear the Lord clearly when you arent on
>track and need correction or encouragement, or through friends who genuinely
>pray for you , preferably both. This has worked well for me and the Lord has
>continued to bless me by providing and strengthening relationships that
>provide this level of genuine accountability whether I like it or not.
>
>What I am trying to highlight here is that there is a spiritual dynamic that
>occurs if or when you choose to join a church in membership or covenant. By
>that agreement you are likely to be coming under the same umbrella of
>spiritual influences as all the other members of the church. You will also
>be joining the groups' corporate responsibility before God. For example if
>the church is guilty of grieving the holy spirit by rejecting and hurting
>people then by becoming a member you are identifying with the sins of the
>corporate group before God. For obvious reasons I do not think that that is
>a good idea.
>
>I became aware of spiritual abuse type issues as I experienced them in my
>own life. Ten years later I found myself ministering regularly to those who
>had experienced spiritual abuse within a wide variety of cults and churches
>and it is as a result of this ministry experience that I have begun to learn
>what has really been going on and what the Lord really thinks about it all.
>
>I dont want to come across as slating those who attend organised churches or
>even those who run them, but I do want to be honest about the dangers that I
>see as being part of that system. Through promoting awareness of these
>spiritual dynamics that the Lord has brought to my attention I hope to help
>anyone who hears to make informed decisions as to how to follow the path
>that Jesus has for you.
>
>to freedom, for it is for freedom that Christ has set us free
>
>Keith