Vicki,
If I may respond, I believe that the church can often be a more difficult
place because it is more targeted by the devil and because the stakes are
higher.  If you get together with a friend over a beer in the world, the
goal is simply to have a good time and help each other keep from getting
board.  In the church, the stakes are life and death and dealing with
sin.  I was shocked at Keith's admonition that his nonChristian
aquaintences are church, just without Christ.  Is the girl friend the same
as the bride? Isn't  Christ  the point?  That's a big difference!!   Would
his nonChristian friends die for him?  I haven't read all of the responses
yet, but I am amazed from what I have read, how much of the criticism
sounds like, "I get nothing out of it."   Is that the point of church?  I
thought that it was supposed to be what we can give.  God is the Audiance
after all.
Kathy



At 07:56 AM 1/26/2005, you wrote:
>I never saw this post.  So if it did and I'm duplicating, please forgive.
>
>Vicki
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Vicki and The Rors" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: "Echurch-USA The Electronic Church" <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 6:29 PM
>Subject: Re: Re: Right Church or should I say Family
>
>
> > Keith,
> >
> > Thanks for all of your good thoughts here.  Much to digest.  Ah!  Good
>food
> > is worth digesting.
> >
> > I appreciate your look at the church being "family."  And that we are.
> > Sometimes it's good to act like it and sometimes not, depending on the
> > family example we are following.
> >
> > Much wrong about the church, and it's easy to become critical.  Like your
> > reference to jaded.  Had no idea that was a UK book.  But much is right
>with
> > it, even if you look at it as an institution.  In being critical of it, we
> > have to include ourselves as part of the church.  In other words, looking
>to
> > our own lives, each individually, and our ways before the Lord, should be
> > part of our criticism.  I think that the world sometimes treats their own
> > kinder than Christians treat their own.  But that's for another e-mail.
> > Remembering some years when there was no question that I was living in the
> > world, you could meet people with like mind about something, spend the
> > evening either commiserating together with a group of friends or having a
> > good time as a group of friends.  Often simple friendship and acceptance
>is
> > missing from many of our churches.
> >
> > Yes, remembering that we are all the church, Christ's body, should make a
> > difference on how we respect, view and treat one another.
> >
> > Sometimes it, though not advocated by any of us, does take opposition and
> > perhaps persecution to put growth on the fast track for the body of
>Christ.
> >
> >
> > Vicki
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Keith Hodges" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 8:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: Right Church or should I say Family
> >
> >
> > > quotes from email by Vicky
> > > > Have recently been thinking that I have some what of a jaded attitude.
> > >
> > > Dear Vicki,
> > >
> > > funny you should use the term Jaded in reference to church because there
> > is
> > > a book called "Jaded" that I bought here in the UK in which a number of
> > > people express their feelings on the subject of how they feel about
> > church.
> > > You or should I say we are not alone.
> > >
> > > >But in a properly functioning church,
> > >
> > > Try saying this, "lets go to family", doesnt that simply sound wrong!
>Well
> > > yes it doesnt make sense. Family is closer to the true idea of what
>church
> > > is than a place, or a meeting. Essentially we are the church, you are
> > > church, I am church and we meet together as church.
> > >
> > > We all know that church is the people dont we, after all we are taught
> > that
> > > at church. No, you see I have used the word "church" as it should never
>be
> > > used. There is no "at" church, we "are" church.
> > >
> > > This also means that there is only one church, and all who are children
>of
> > > God are in it all of the time. There is no time during the day when I am
> > not
> > > in church. The Church of Jesus Christ simply is, and we are all part of
>it
> > > if we are beleivers.
> > >
> > > The implications are pretty radical if you let them hit you...
> > > think of the phrase "church attendance", it only makes sense if you use
> > the
> > > word church to refer to a place or a meeting. Try my old trick, let us
>see
> > > if using the word family in place of the word church helps us to
> > understand
> > > how it doesnt make sense. Ok here goes. "family attendance". See it
> > > obviously does not make sense.
> > >
> > > What of the concept of church membership, meaning membership of a
>church.
> > > Again this idea is using the word "church" to refer to something, a
> > building
> > > or a group of people that was never conceived in the New Testament when
> > the
> > > word ekklesia (the greek word for church) is used.
> > >
> > > I will leave "church leadership", as an excercise for the reader ;-)
> > >
> > > I want to throw in a mention of the word "pastor". Notice that the
> > Ephesians
> > > 5, ministries of Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Teacher and Evangelist,
> > describe
> > > callings. They describe how a person relates to other people, its in
>their
> > > character. I will use Phil as an example, I am sure that he will not
>mind
> > me
> > > saying that he has a prophetic calling, and this is characterised by his
> > > willingness to confront, or present the Lords truth to people despite
>what
> > > others may think or say. Phil has that blunt honesty about him, which
>when
> > > the Lord uses him, becomes a cutting edge. It is his character that
>makes
> > > him a prophet and the fact that the Lord has formed that character in
>him
> > > through the whole of his life so that he can relate to other people as a
> > > prophet of the Lord Jesus.
> > >
> > > The fact is that the word "pastor" refers to someone who has a caring
> > heart
> > > for others. It is in their very nature. In truth it has nothing to do
>with
> > > leadership; I was surprised to discover that in actual fact the gift of
> > > "administrations" as listed in the list of spiritual gifts is that of
> > > leading and organising such as would be used in a business or government
> > > (but not forgetting Jesus is the head of the church)
> > >
> > > So remembering that only good trees bear good fruit and bad trees do not
> > > bear good fruit. We are taught to judge a tree by its fruit. If anyone
> > > claiming to be a pastor does not naturally receive, hear out, respect,
> > have
> > > compassion for, demonstrate empathy for, any other human that they meet,
> > > then they dont have the character of a pastor. Without that caring heart
> > as
> > > the essence of their being then then they simply are not a "pastor" as
>God
> > > defines it.
> > >
> > > Now it is not right to stop there, if you see a tree that is not bearing
> > > good fruit, should it not be cut down and thrown into the fire. Ok
>perhaps
> > > that is a bit strong, but surely we should not be eating of the fruit of
>a
> > > bad tree.
> > >
> > > Please dont get up set with me, hear me out.... I think I am being
>logical
> > > and sensible.
> > >
> > > Step 1. A "pastor" is a person with a caring heart who serves others and
> > > will go out of their way to look after sheep in a practical manner. So
> > > therefore those who are called to be nurses, or carers, or relief agency
> > > workers are "pastors".
> > > Step 2, Therefore it follows that who call themselves pastors as part of
>a
> > > church organisation in which they are the CEO are not fulfilling the
>role
> > of
> > > a biblical pastor at all really.
> > > Step 3 this means that God did not appoint them to that position.
> > > Step 4 I realise that that makes the whole work of a "church" that is
>run
> > by
> > > a "pastor" since it was not Gods idea.
> > > Step 5, dont partake of that fruit, teaching, covering etc, none of this
> > is
> > > Gods idea of a good thing.
> > >
> > > > should there not be a place of service for every member of the body of
> > > > Christ?    And what about the verses in Hebrews 10:24-25.  New Living
> > puts
> > > > it this way.
> > > >
> > > > Think of ways to encourage one another to outbursts of love and good
> > > > deeds.
> > > > And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but
> > > > encourage and warn each other, especially now that the day of his
>coming
> > > > back again is drawing near.
> > > > I like that outburst of good deeds.
> > >
> > > Ah yes, this is great you have pointed out the very thing that people
> > > usually misunderstand about this verse, the context. The purpose of
> > meeting
> > > together in this verse is not prayer, praise, learning, but it is to
>"spur
> > > one another on to 'outbursts of love and good deeds' ". This verse was
>not
> > > written for the purpose of telling people who do not go to church that
> > they
> > > ought to which is how it is most often used.
> > >
> > > So I think back to all of those church meetings I have been to. Have you
>
> > > ever been to a service where that was really the purpose of the meeting.
>I
> > > myself have never been to a church service that was for the purpose of
> > then
> > > going out and doing something like ministering to the poor. In my
> > experience
> > > those sorts of meeting tend to be in smaller groups who meet to go and
>do
> > > something.
> > >
> > > > We won't have that perfect church until heaven, but the church today
>is
> > >
> > > ah... Surely Gods true church is the one that he said he would build. "I
> > > will build my church" I think he said. Those that are free in Christ are
> > > able to share their gifts and minister and serve as God calls. They have
> > the
> > > time and the freedom to grow in relationship with Christ and live and do
> > > what he is calling them to do. Those who are free and obedient to the
>Lord
> > > also dont really care what people think of them so they get on with it.
> > >
> > > The problem is when you or I as an individual, one of Gods children who
> > are
> > > free, choose to submit to a nominated person or leader or organisation,
> > then
> > > you find that your freedom is limited, the relationships are no way as
> > deep
> > > as they should be etc etc etc. Our freedom is also stolen from us by the
> > > enemy who sows seeds in our minds of fears and doubts that limit us in
> > doing
> > > what the Lord would like us to do.
> > >
> > > > severely hampered, and misses out because members of the body aren't
>in
> > > > their places erving, sharing their God-given gifts, ministering and
> > being
> > > > ministered to..  I'm not just talking about the up front people that
>we
> > > > might see every Sunday like the pastor or the worship teams.  But so
> > that
> > > > I
> > > > don't get on a soap box, wonder what others of you think?
> > > >
> > > > I'm sure glad that we can assemble here on the net.  The physical
> > assembly
> > > > is still, however, important.
> > >
> > > Of course it is important for us to meet together. Gods idea of us
>meeting
> > > together is that we grow and develop in relation ship to one another and
> > to
> > > him. This an active process of interacting with each other in the
>context
> > of
> > > our daily lives. When Jesus walked the earth he went and he taught
>others
> > to
> > > be travelling around and fellowshipping with everyone as he went in
>towns
> > > and villages all over the country. (i.e. not the same group week in week
> > > out, that was never the intention or the model proposed)
> > >
> > > ah now, this is a bit of a "sacred cow" of the church and so I would
>like
> > to
> > > present an alternative idea.... consider for a moment all of the great
>men
> > > and women of God over the past centuries who have had their faith
> > developed
> > > and cemented and their fellowship with Christ blessed through harsh
> > > experiences such as prison for example. Not that I am advocating
>solitary
> >
> > > confinement as the way forward I am just pointing out that many of the
> > most
> > > productive times in which God works on our characters and brings forth
> > > spirutual growth and maturity tend to be those times when we are in the
> > > wilderness, often times when we are on our own. Can you agree?
> > >
> > > If a hot coal is removed from a fire grate and is all on its own then it
> > > will get cold. Have you heard this one? But it is not neccessarily true.
> > If
> > > the fire in the fire-place is not going very well at all, it is dying
>and
> > > turning to ashes, and the Lord Jesus picks up a struggling hurting coal
> > from
> > > the fringes, the edge of the fire. It is a whole different story if the
> > Lord
> > > Jesus picks that coal up and places it in the middle of a blow torch
> > flame.
> > >
> > > thats the place to be, even if it is lonely, a little uncomfortable, and
> > > hot!
> > >
> > > yours in Christ
> > >
> > > Keith
> > >
> >