Hi evBrad, John and List,
When I talk about conditional forgiveness, I am speaking mainly about Mat.
18, verses 23-35.  I don't think you will necessarily lose your salvation,
but that's a scarey parable.  I don't want to try it to find out what it
means either.
Now, on a slightly off-topic vain, I would have pasted those verses in here,
but I can't figure out how to copy those verses to the clipboard with my
online bible program.  I spent hours and hours last night trying to follow
the prompts.  it has to do with setting the verse range.  There are two
different prompts for that,and it is just a frustration to me.
Vinny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad D" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: Re: Conditional forgiveness??


> John,
>
> That was my thought, salvation doesn't equate forgiveness of trespasses,
> at least in this context. Therefore indeed, our lack of forgiving,
> produces our trespasses to not be dealt with. Granted, scripture is
> interpreted by scripture. That is verses are taken first in context, and
> also flavored  by the intent of  other scripture and not strictly by the
> printed word. However, the  statement Jesus made of forgiving others or
> our issues won't be forgiven, is pretty blatantly straightforward. So for
> it to be true, salvation mustn't be applied in this flavor of trespass or
> else it either makes Jesus a liar or other parts of scripture
> contradictory. The Word is kind of like a bobsled at times. We begin our
> trek down the middle of the runway, and as the Word guides us as the walls
> of the bobsled chute, we are pushed in a direction and when we read
> another precept that pushes back to God's will in another area, it is
> again like riding the wall of another turn in the runway. The only
> difference is, it is the runway, or God's Word that is actually straight,
> and it is our path that zig zags about as we tend to bobble about in life.
>
> Brad
>
>
> on 08:22 PM 7/28/2005, John Schwery said:
> Brad, I believe that what our Lord said is talking about our
> fellowship with him.  I don't equate forgiveness with salvation.  I
> believe we can be saved and undealt with sin.  I don't believe that
> this state continues for years.  Yes, it is one of those apparent
> contradictions that takes study to understand.
>
> earlier, Brad D, wrote:
>  >How do we explain Jesus explanation  of if we do not forgive other's
> sins
>  >against us, he will not forgive  ours? And does forgiveness equate
>  >salvation? Or can we be saved and yet have unforgiven sins to be dealt
>  >with? Curious to the apparent contradiction in scripture then.
>  >
>  >Brad
>  >
>  >on 06:06 PM 7/28/2005, John Schwery said:
>  >I believe that forgiveness is unconditional in that it does not break
>  >our relationship with God.  Unconfessed sin can break our fellowship
>  >with Him, however.  I believe that if anyone adds anything to
>  >salvation, then, grace is no longer grace, but works have been added,
>  >perverting the gospel.  This doesn't mean that I believe that we can
>  >sin and get away with it, but sin does not break our relationship
>  >with Him.  If it does, then, all of us are toast.  Notice that in
>  >Psalm 51, David did not say to the Lord, restore unto me Thy
>  >salvation, but restore unto me, the Joy of Thy salvation.  When our
>  >fellowship is broken with the Lord, we no longer have that peace that
>  >passes all understanding or the joy of the Lord.
>  >
>  >earlier, Vinny Samarco, wrote:
>  >  >Hi Brad,
>  >  >I am glad you brought this point up.  I have heard of too many
>  >ministries
>  >  >who make God out to be this spineless lovy-dovey blob that will let
>  >everyone
>  >  >do anything, and require absolutely nothing from them.  This is truly
> a
>  >  >perversion of the gospel.  I think most
>  >  >Christians would be totally shocked if they would ever do a complete
>  >study
>  >  >on all the if's and buts in the bible.  They would see that after
> Jesus
>  >  >reveals himself to us, forgives our sins, etc. there are some
>  >requirements
>  >  >that The Lord requires of all his people.  I'm not talking about
>  >  >self-imposed works, I am talking about biblical requirements.
>  >  >Vinny
>  >  >----- Original Message -----
>  >  >From: "Brad D" <[log in to unmask]>
>  >  >To: <[log in to unmask]>
>  >  >Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 5:50 AM
>  >  >Subject: Conditional forgiveness??
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > > "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father
> will
>  >also
>  >  > > forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,
> neither
>  >will
>  >  > > your Father forgive your trespasses."-- Matthew 6:14-15
>  >  > >
>  >  > > This Jesus taught his disciples, believers, not those who opposed
> his
>  >  > > message; purpose;  and existence. These words just after
> instructing
>  >them
>  >  > > how to pray, and continued after these verses to instruct them on
>  >conduct
>  >  > > and attitudes. Despite what we've come to know as "The Lord's
> Prayer"
>  >  > > stating "and forgive us our trespass as we forgive those who
> trespass
>  >  > > against us", Jesus felt that precept needing to be blatantly noted
>  >after
>  >  > > the prayer. We indeed find freedom in forgiving others, but as
>  >with  the
>  >  > > message of the Word, "it is not about us", it in this case is
> about
>  >giving
>  >  > > grace to others, just as we've received grace unto ourselves. God
>  >knows
>  >  > > that we have enough trouble with that concept, that he holds our
>  >  > > forgiveness randsome. This indeed sounds conditional to me.
>  >  > >
>  >  > > Brad
>  >  > >
>  >
>  >John
>
> John