Brad and Kathy,

And Texas is supposed to be big.  Grin.

Vicki

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad D" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [ECHURCH-USA] Right Church


> Kathy,
>
> Someplace smaller? That is where I was before we moved to Texas, and
> returned when we first got back. It doesn't matter to me really big or
> small. I mean I'd be a liar if I didn't say I love playing with extremely
> talented musicians/singers at the larger church in Texas, that was just
> awesome, but that isn't what makes worship. We've had just as good if not
> more intimate worship in the living room of some of our friends with just
a
> guitar, hands raised, and hearts wrenched with sincere worship. I think
> perhaps God is benching me for a while and at the same time making me OK
> with it. Perhaps he is changing my position on the team... that is unknown
> yet, he is the coach and I'm waiting for my orders. Regarding doctrinal
> difference? Well Kathy? That was pathetic lol You might has well just
asked
> right out hahahahaah. Either way I don't mind. You see they don't believe
> in animal sacrifices, they say they went out when Jesus was crucified  and
> well.... hahahahahahhahahahaha had you scared there a second eh? Seriously
> there is a serious deficiency of spirit led anything. I mean where I come
> from you first pray about something and hold fast for God's direction, but
> there are much head minded direction here. As well elements of the Holy
> Spirit such as believe in tongues is sarcastically chuckled at and
outright
> stated they do not believe it exists. Also  things like sickness. We had a
> lady in the church who overcame breast cancer and  the church on a series
> on testimonies or something like that, showed an interview with her
> explaining how god gave her this cancer and etc. I'm sorry but I'm not
sold
> on God afflicting us with sickness when his son who is meant to be the
> perfect personality of the  Father in flesh form, and he healed those with
> illness and had compassion on them. Bad things happen to good people, but
> that doesn't equate god giving them to us, but rather they come to us as
we
> live in a fallen world and he is there for us to get us through them. Also
> the fact they are a seeker friendly church. Preaching God's salvation and
> all and then dismissing folks as if "shows over". In the beginning of the
> service you are invited to fill out a communication card to express your
> needs or comments. Can you imagine someone being convicted in their heart
> through a word from God and then wanting to do something about it right
> now, when the time is ripe, and then having to fill out a card for the
> pastor to call you later in the week? What if someone was on the fence and
> just wanted to talk or pray with someone? There is no mention of that. No
> alter calls because I believe they think they would be seen as pressuring
> folks to come up front. Although I have to admit there has been a sort of
> call to the front for prayer as a group towards life direction as we go
> through a series on goals for your life and etc. That is something anyway.
> I'm use to a bit more meat, and helping people where they need meeting and
> not the impersonal approach. Like I say it is probably just god's
> repositioning me in life where I need to be.
>
> Brad
>
>
>
>
>
> At 12:05 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
> >Hey Brad,
> >Do you suppose that you might be called to something small?  I know that
> >small churches don't have the worship band approach, mostly because they
> >don't have the talent, or maybe I should say people,  for it, but it's
> >something to consider.  Of course, nosy me is curious about the doctrinal
> >differences thing too, but I'll refrain from asking.  I'll just
> >hint!  Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, GRIN, GRIN!  Tsk, tsk, tsk!
> >Kathy
> >
> >
> >At 11:38 PM 2/8/2005, you wrote:
> > >Kathy,
> > >
> > >Yes that has been prayed about. And to be perfectly honest if it was
just a
> > >matter of that, we'd stay, however  there are doctrinal issues that
differ
> > >which I thought would be OK to deal with  when they come up. But I see
> > >differently now,  I don't  plan to try to change them, and visa versa.
As
> > >much as I enjoy going to church(s), that is get something from a
message
> > >and etc. I foundationally believe it has a larger purpose of serving
and
> > >helping others to grow and come to Christ. It is up to us individually
to
> > >keep and maintain the relationship with God and church can be a kicker,
but
> > >not the only link. This too is why I suppose we jumped in as we did, to
> > >serve. I really feel time is needed to step back and take a deep breath
as
> > >there maybe a change in ministry focus down the road and this could
well be
> > >a part of all that too. But I honestly appreciate your concern and
input.
> > >
> > >Brad
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >At 08:05 AM 2/8/2005, you wrote:
> > > >Brad,
> > > >Just a thought.  If this is a young church, is it possible that your
> > > >maturity is what is needed.  In other words, be sure that the Lord is
> > > >encouraging you to move on and that you aren't just moving on because
you
> > > >are uncomfortable.  They could be the sand that the Lord has placed
in
> > your
> > > >shell to make a pearl.  Remember, Growth in God is all about leaving
the
> > > >comfort zone.  I could say more, but I think that you get my drift.
> > > >Kathy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >Kathy,
> > > > >
> > > > >Ouch ouch ouch!! lol. I understand your point, agree too. Basically
> > we did
> > > > >jump in too quick, thought in part some of the doctrinal issues
were
> > > > >tolerable,  as well the statement of the church's intentions were
not
> > > > >reality when totally involved. That fortunately is changing but
> > > nonetheless
> > > > >the fit you talked of is just the issue no matter how on target
they are
> > > > >with the statements they made. They are a young church and much
growing
> > > > >needed. Fortunately they have a pastor who is willing to look at
himself
> > > > >and see changes needed as well and not too proud to admit it when
he is
> > > > >wrong. The hole left wen I leave indeed I trust is not a major one,
I
> > > don't
> > > > >think it will as there are others that can fill in the tasky type
> > > stuff and
> > > > >one person who has led regularly before. This is why I gave from
> > March to
> > > > >May to gradually wean myself out so others can do stuff. It will be
> > > less an
> > > > >issue other than eventually those we are somewhat close to will
find
> > > out we
> > > > >are leaving and that coupled with the many who have left may cause
head
> > > > >scratches. What is also difficult is we have a family similar to
> > ours who
> > > > >are involved with worship and make up a fair share of members on
any
> > given
> > > > >Sunday, and they too I believe are hanging on by a thread. My fear
> > is once
> > > > >they get wind of our intentions that they too will leave and the
worship
> > > > >team will be skeletonized. The extension from March to May I
believe is
> > > > >direction from God as I was full well intended to get it over with
in
> > > a few
> > > > >short weeks.
> > > > >
> > > > >Brad
> > > > >o
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >At 07:23 AM 2/7/2005, you wrote:
> > > > > >Well Brad,
> > > > > >I pretty much gave my opinion of getting involved in church in my
> > > > answer to
> > > > > >Phil.  It's a bet conservative, I guess, but it is comfortable
for
> > > me.  To
> > > > > >be truthful, I had thought that my question had gotten lost in
siber
> > > > space,
> > > > > >never to return.  You can see from the date that it was actually
> > > posted on
> > > > > >January 29, so I've been a bit caught off guard.  The reason that
I
> > > asked
> > > > > >the question, however, is because I did sence, as you relayed
your
> > > > > >involvement with both churches since returning to Wosconsin,
that,
> > > > perhaps,
> > > > > >you were moving a bit too quickly into a leadership position.  I
> > > know that
> > > > > >you are gifted in music and your heart is to offer it to the Lord
> > where
> > > > > >ever he leads you.  Your heart attitude was never in question for
> > > me, only
> > > > > >the timing.  By saying this, I don't mean to sound like I am
> > judging, or
> > > > > >pointing a finger and saying that you did something wrong, so I
hope
> > > that
> > > > > >you don't take it that way, but I do think that it is good to
step
> > > > back and
> > > > > >examine doctrines  and practices of a church community before
getting
> > > > > >involved, not just for your own sake, but for theirs.  If they
become
> > > > > >dependent upon your leadership skills, and it isn't a good fit,
you
> > > > > >yourself mey not realize the size of the hole that you will be
leaving
> > > > > >behind when you feel led to move on.  I pray that my approach is
> > > meant to
> > > > > >cause as little hurt as possible for both sides.
> > > > > >Kathy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >At 05:28 PM 2/5/2005, you wrote:
> > > > > > >Kathy,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Searching for politically correct answer sensing a set up lol.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >*rubbing hands together before setting them on the keypad*
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >First let me say, I am not against organized gatherings of
> > > > believers, nor
> > > > > > >am I against calling it a church. I mean it is a matter of
semantics
> > > > > > >anyway. We go to cake walks and I don't see any cakes walking
> > > about, but
> > > > > > >they are still delicious. Or here, just the other day, my wife,
she
> > > > > says...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >"Don't jump all over me!"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I swear!  My feet never left the floor!! Ever heard someone
say...
> > > "She
> > > > > > >jumped down my throat on that one!" Very difficult imagery
here,
> > very
> > > > > > >difficult indeed. Especially  if we take some things literally.
So
> > > > > "church"
> > > > > > >to me is the people, who tend to collect in buildings of same
> > name but
> > > > > > >hardly the same thing. I mean buildings are made of cement
> > blocks and
> > > > > > >mortar... well I was called a blockhead the other day so
perhaps
> > > > there is
> > > > > > >some similarities... I don't know. Anyway, the point is church
> > > indeed is
> > > > > > >the people and not the place.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >The question is, "how long do you wait, when exploring a new
church,
> > > > > before
> > > > > > >you get involved?"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Well as Phil noted there are two sides to that proverbial coin,
a
> > > > > servant's
> > > > > > >side, and the leadership's side. We too had people wanting to
jump
> > > > in and
> > > > > > >do music after being there only one Sunday... Geesh I hope we
didn't
> > > > sound
> > > > > > >that bad... anyway, yes we don't know who they are, where they
came
> > > > > from or
> > > > > > >what their beliefs are on such items. I mean get a low key
tongue
> > > talker
> > > > > > >who suddenly feels led to speak his piece during praise and
worship
> > > > in the
> > > > > > >midst of a room full of  Baptists, and you got all kinds of
> > shades or
> > > > > red a
> > > > > > >happening. From blushes to heads ready to blow.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >As for the servant's side? There are similar considerations, or
> > > should I
> > > > > > >say "discernments". For instance here they seem to have a need
for
> > > > praise
> > > > > > >and worship folks, or so I thought in myself... wrong. They
> > could well
> > > > > have
> > > > > > >done without me, but I wanted to involve myself because that is
> > what I
> > > > > like
> > > > > > >to do. I do not care  to just sit back but like to get involved
in
> > > > an area
> > > > > > >I can contribute. And after all, this church seemed to be
> > > > > contemporary, did
> > > > > > >messages on salvation, seemed unstuffy, and seemed to  have a
heart
> > > > > for the
> > > > > > >community. And it does. However, the doctrinal differences I
have I
> > > > > ignored
> > > > > > >at the time to find a church nearby, one that we could be
involved
> > > > within
> > > > > > >the community this time and not travel. And, seeker friendly?
Hey
> > > it is
> > > > > > >good to catch those seeking God. The problem is with that there
is
> > > > > > >compromise. I won't go into detail but there are issues I just
do
> > > > not feel
> > > > > > >is part of God's word. So to really sum  up this dribble with
an
> > > answer,
> > > > > > >I'd say "until God leads you to get involved". How do I say
this
> > > without
> > > > > > >sounding egotistical or positionally Pius, because I'm not.
> > > Involved has
> > > > > > >it's own intensities. I mean jumping in to play music is less
> > > dependent
> > > > > > >upon than folding service pamphlets. Now now now now now now.
now
> > > . Stop
> > > > > > >it! Don't take that wrong. I truly believe we all work together
and
> > > > > each is
> > > > > > >an intricate part of itno matter what is seen or unseen, but
finding
> > > > > > >someone to fold pamphlets is a bit easier than anyone who is
> > > willing to
> > > > > > >embarrass themselves in front of hundreds of folks by playing
an
> > > > > > >instrument. I mean I could become involved folding pamphlets
and
> > > > drop dead
> > > > > > >and they'd mourn for me and hardly discuss who could take my
> > > > > place,  but if
> > > > > > >one is leaned on to sing, lead others, play an instrument, work
up
> > > > songs,
> > > > > > >work up schedules for singers and musicians, and so forth, the
> > > prospects
> > > > > > >become in the form of a smaller ratio. That is why involvement
is
> > > to be
> > > > > > >followed by God's leading and not override it. Sometimes
patience,
> > > as we
> > > > > > >discussed need be exercised and not create an Ishmil
> > > > > (spelling???)There are
> > > > > > >times people fill in because there is a need, a hole needing to
be
> > > > > plugged,
> > > > > > >and then there are times when things move on to where someone
who is
> > > > > called
> > > > > > >to be the real person need come in.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >No quote, "church", is perfect, we are human, we have issues,
> > > > jealousies,
> > > > > > >egos, selfish desires, able to take offense, fears, desires and
> > > > agendas we
> > > > > > >see which leaders don't, and after all we are right aren't we??
Huh?
> > > > Sure
> > > > > > >we are, I think lolAren't we? Sure we are. Hmm? . There is no
set
> > > > time, a
> > > > > > >month, six months or the like but there is a time of proving
and a
> > > > time of
> > > > > > >knowing you are where God wants you to be. If not I could put
> > all the
> > > > > names
> > > > > > >of all the churches in a bucket and reach in and pick one. I
> > > really like
> > > > > > >the people in this house of worship... see dad, not a church
*smile*
> > > > just
> > > > > > >funnin' ya, and they are all good people, but it has been for
some
> > > > > time now
> > > > > > >I've known it was not where God wanted us to be, but we stayed
> > to help
> > > > > > >anyway, and we are still staying until end of May to not thwart
any
> > > > > > >momentum currently enjoyed by folks stepping forward to help. I
> > do not
> > > > > feel
> > > > > > >a rush to  attend or be members of another church for the sake
of
> > > > being in
> > > > > > >one, I think there is a time of refocussing, and building up
> > from the
> > > > > > >resources we have here and then set out. I am also of the
belief
> > > to not
> > > > > > >forsake the assembly, because not only do we learn and grow as
a
> > > > result of
> > > > > > >that assembly but others may as well from what you have to
offer.
> > > It may
> > > > > > >not seem so, but I am very bothered by the need for the
decision
> > > > which has
> > > > > > >been made, first because I don't wish to lead anyone up the gar
den
> > > path
> > > > > > >regarding our commitment to helping out. I mean I value
commitment
> > > very
> > > > > > >highly and feel I've put myself and family in a position of not
> > > > letting my
> > > > > > >yeses be yeses and my no's be no's.  More bothersome is that I
put
> > > aside
> > > > > > >what God might want and jumped in on my own reasoning. Perhaps
> > it was
> > > > > meant
> > > > > > >to be as such and God is just repositioning. There is no set
time to
> > > > > > >decide. I know, you as a pastor's spouse and involved in church
as a
> > > > > > >calling will have perhaps a different vantage point. So as
Colin
> > > > Rae, the
> > > > > > >country singer says..."that's my story and I'm sticking to it!"
> > > lol. Now
> > > > > > >aren't you glad you asked???
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Brad
>