That's true Karen.

Brad


At 07:46 AM 1/25/2006 +0000, you wrote:
>It is sad that man has his hand in everything.  Denominations are made of 
>man.  God does not see them.  He see's what is in the heart and our 
>relationship with him.  When we get to Heaven we will see how much man 
>worried about things that God was not even concerned about.
>
>--
>I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out 
>there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is
>
>IN GOD WE TRUST
>Karen Carter  '74
>-KC- Ministries
>
>
>  -------------- Original message ----------------------
>From: MV <[log in to unmask]>
> > Angel,
> >
> > I agree we are predestined to use our free will as we both made mention in
> > an earlier post and I'm not even Catholic *big cheezy smile*, actually I'm
> > probably a denominational mutt having grown up Lutheran, married in a
> > Moravian church, served in a couple non-denominational churches, as 
> well as
> > one inter-denominational church, recently came from a Baptist church and
> > now attending an Assembly of God that seems to have balance apart from
> > other O G churches I'll not make mention here. I've moved a few times 
> in my
> > life which caused me to look about and search out churches making a
> > difference and teaching the word. Anyway that wasn't my point of this 
> email
> > I guess I just realized I guess I'm a freewiller as to grasping the Word
> > for what it is and not so much a denominational marriage, which there is
> > nothing wrong with that, I guess I just hadn't taken that road. Anyway My
> > real point is, actually there are two, are...
> >
> > Point #1, you mentioned about we are predestined to freewill. But also 
> said...
> >
> > "This is why I have always felt sorry for Judas.  He was the one God had
> > planned to betray Jesus."
> >
> > Are you saying he was predestined but we're not? I think I had wondered
> > this here before on list that if Judas hadn't chose to follow through,
> > would someone else have stepped up?  I'm thinking of another person at a
> > critical time of history who had a choice. Ester when her uncle told her
> > upon her unwillingness to plead to the king on behalf of the Jews...
> > "For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise
> > for the Jews from another place and you and your father's house will
> > perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a 
> time
> > as this?"-- Ester 4:14
> >
> > So it appears as Ester had a choice and God would see to it this thing
> > would be accomplished one way or the other. Such could also be said for
> > Judas I wonder.
> >
> > Point #2 is  I always had questioned whether or not Judas was actually a
> > gonner spiritually. I mean it seemed unfair, especially if he was somehow
> > destined to be the trigger man of Christ's crucifixion. If you look he 
> felt
> > remorse, gave the 30 pieces of silver back and guilt took over so much so
> > he hung himself. I had, in my thoughts,  questioned preachers when they
> > mentioned Judas is in hell for his betrayal. To me it seemed he must have
> > had a first rate relationship with Christ to be  among the twelve, and 
> with
> > all who were after Christ for healing folks right under their noses, on 
> the
> > Sabbath yet, they had good reason to go after him without a betray or so
> > that will be another question for me to wonder. However, after reading and
> > looking up some definitions of  the Scripture in Strong's Greek/Hebrew, I
> > see that Judas indeed, by Jesus' words  is in fact a gonner. Jesus said...
> >
> > "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have
> > given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of
> > perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled." --John 17:12
> >
> > Looking up the word parish in the original it is...
> >
> > NT:622 apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from NT:575 and the base of NT:3639;
> > to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or 
> figuratively:
> > KJV - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
> >
> > Looking up the word "perdition" it is defined...
> > NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622;
> > ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):
> > KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, 
> pernicious
> > ways, waste.
> >
> > I suppose the latter word could be stretched as to say he only died
> > physically as that is one of it's definitions but that coupled with
> > the  prior word being "fully" destroyed, and the fact the two words are
> > connected as a derivative, gives connotation Judas won't be among those we
> > see in eternity with God. It is difficult to see how a man who could walk
> > with Christ as his disciple has fallen, and then look at our own lives and
> > consider we will not fall eternally despite our sin and levels of betrayal
> > if we accept, believe and trust in Christ. The one guy who you'd expect
> > to  have the pardon of pardons, especially if this was a destined position
> > for him somehow, would be Judas. His very part in history provided the
> > segue for all mankind to have eternal life despite sin. It is definitely
> > perplexing to me.
> >
> > Brad
> >
> >
> >
> > Brad
> >
> >    Nothing else ruins the truth like stretching it

Brad

   A lot of kneeling will keep you in good standing