Angel,
Perhaps because the Bible talks about and gives instruction in the areas
of forgiveness and salvation, and this is a discussion list dealing with
the Word, but the Bible doesn't give instructions to pray "to" saints, or
deal in 'bingo"? Although much of what we do talk about deals with modern
day application, which is very good in helping us better apply precepts of
God's word in our lives, , I'm not sure discussing the benefit of the
existence of praying to saints, beer tents and bingo are foundational
applications?? Perhaps a discussion as to such would be appropriate if one
had a real pinch in their neck about it one way or the other, but I'm not
sure it would go without strong opinion by many on both sides and
eventually yes, doctrinal or denominational defensiveness, leading to
folks not caring for other folks becuase they said this or that, and so
we try to avoid that. Agree on what we agree on and agree to disagree on
other issues and keep in mind we may not always be right and so search the
Word for our understanding of it. Salvation and forgiveness as well are
not doctrinal issues of questionable presence within Christianity, but
are a staple item which is part of it. Does that help or make sense? And,
because you've seen this is sort of a loose list, sometimes the ropes need
pulling in if traffic gets a bit far, or more often than that is when like
I say defensive or unproductive attitudes come in which might provoke
unbrotherly love *new word* hahaha.
Brad
on 09:07 AM 7/29/2005, Angel said:
I didn't think we were suppose to discuss doctrinal issues. It seemed
when
I tried to explain the reasons for believing in why we pray to saints, and
why bingo wasn't necessarily a bad thing I and Karin were told not to
discuss things like that but when you discuss forgiveness and it's
significance regarding salvation that is fine? If Karin and I are not
allowed to discuss matters of doctrine why are you? I am not trying to be
impertinent here but am just trying to understand the difference.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad D" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: Conditional forgiveness??
> John,
>
> That was my thought, salvation doesn't equate forgiveness of
trespasses,
> at least in this context. Therefore indeed, our lack of forgiving,
> produces our trespasses to not be dealt with. Granted, scripture is
> interpreted by scripture. That is verses are taken first in context,
and
> also flavored by the intent of other scripture and not strictly by
the
> printed word. However, the statement Jesus made of forgiving others or
> our issues won't be forgiven, is pretty blatantly straightforward. So
for
> it to be true, salvation mustn't be applied in this flavor of trespass
or
> else it either makes Jesus a liar or other parts of scripture
> contradictory. The Word is kind of like a bobsled at times. We begin
our
> trek down the middle of the runway, and as the Word guides us as the
walls
> of the bobsled chute, we are pushed in a direction and when we read
> another precept that pushes back to God's will in another area, it is
> again like riding the wall of another turn in the runway. The only
> difference is, it is the runway, or God's Word that is actually
straight,
> and it is our path that zig zags about as we tend to bobble about in
life.
>
> Brad
>
>
> on 08:22 PM 7/28/2005, John Schwery said:
> Brad, I believe that what our Lord said is talking about our
> fellowship with him. I don't equate forgiveness with salvation. I
> believe we can be saved and undealt with sin. I don't believe that
> this state continues for years. Yes, it is one of those apparent
> contradictions that takes study to understand.
>
> earlier, Brad D, wrote:
> >How do we explain Jesus explanation of if we do not forgive other's
> sins
> >against us, he will not forgive ours? And does forgiveness equate
> >salvation? Or can we be saved and yet have unforgiven sins to be
dealt
> >with? Curious to the apparent contradiction in scripture then.
> >
> >Brad
> >
> >on 06:06 PM 7/28/2005, John Schwery said:
> >I believe that forgiveness is unconditional in that it does not break
> >our relationship with God. Unconfessed sin can break our fellowship
> >with Him, however. I believe that if anyone adds anything to
> >salvation, then, grace is no longer grace, but works have been added,
> >perverting the gospel. This doesn't mean that I believe that we can
> >sin and get away with it, but sin does not break our relationship
> >with Him. If it does, then, all of us are toast. Notice that in
> >Psalm 51, David did not say to the Lord, restore unto me Thy
> >salvation, but restore unto me, the Joy of Thy salvation. When our
> >fellowship is broken with the Lord, we no longer have that peace that
> >passes all understanding or the joy of the Lord.
> >
> >earlier, Vinny Samarco, wrote:
> > >Hi Brad,
> > >I am glad you brought this point up. I have heard of too many
> >ministries
> > >who make God out to be this spineless lovy-dovey blob that will
let
> >everyone
> > >do anything, and require absolutely nothing from them. This is
truly
> a
> > >perversion of the gospel. I think most
> > >Christians would be totally shocked if they would ever do a
complete
> >study
> > >on all the if's and buts in the bible. They would see that after
> Jesus
> > >reveals himself to us, forgives our sins, etc. there are some
> >requirements
> > >that The Lord requires of all his people. I'm not talking about
> > >self-imposed works, I am talking about biblical requirements.
> > >Vinny
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Brad D" <[log in to unmask]>
> > >To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > >Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 5:50 AM
> > >Subject: Conditional forgiveness??
> > >
> > >
> > > > "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father
> will
> >also
> > > > forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,
> neither
> >will
> > > > your Father forgive your trespasses."-- Matthew 6:14-15
> > > >
> > > > This Jesus taught his disciples, believers, not those who
opposed
> his
> > > > message; purpose; and existence. These words just after
> instructing
> >them
> > > > how to pray, and continued after these verses to instruct them
on
> >conduct
> > > > and attitudes. Despite what we've come to know as "The Lord's
> Prayer"
> > > > stating "and forgive us our trespass as we forgive those who
> trespass
> > > > against us", Jesus felt that precept needing to be blatantly
noted
> >after
> > > > the prayer. We indeed find freedom in forgiving others, but as
> >with the
> > > > message of the Word, "it is not about us", it in this case is
> about
> >giving
> > > > grace to others, just as we've received grace unto ourselves.
God
> >knows
> > > > that we have enough trouble with that concept, that he holds
our
> > > > forgiveness randsome. This indeed sounds conditional to me.
> > > >
> > > > Brad
> > > >
> >
> >John
>
> John
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