John,
I thought about throwing Hebrews 6:4-6 in but I was already up to 8 pages so
I figured I was whipping a dead horse anyhow so why bother.
Phil.
----- Original Message -----
From: "john schwery" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: It's My Fault, Faith I mean.
> Phil, as you probably know, Heb. 6-4:6 goes along with the Hebrews
> passage you mentioned. This is why people who believe in that view
> for the Heb. 6 passage have to admit that if a person loses his
> salvation, it cannot be regained.
>
> earlier, virgieU, wrote:
> >Phil, A good article!
> >
> >Virgie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Scovell"
<[log in to unmask]>
> >To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:35 PM
> >Subject: It's My Fault, Faith I mean.
> >
> >
> >>Here is my latest article that for sure will get me into big time
trouble
> >>with lots of people. It is also long, about 8 pages, but whose
counting.
> >>Phil.
> >>So It's My Fault Again?
> >>
> >>By Phil Scovell
> >>
> >> Yes, I did it again! I turned on the radio and dialed up a
> >>Christian broadcast. I couldn't help it. It was late, about
> >>midnight, I wasn't sleepy yet, and besides, it was my favorite
> >>preacher's voice coming through the speaker. His program was
> >>just coming on the air so I settled back to listen to his daily 15
> >>minute broadcast. Within five minutes, I was spitting, rending my
> >>clothes, and casting dust into the air. "Why me, God? Why do you
> >>let me hear this stuff? I don't even have my own radio or TV
> >>program to expose the false teaching, Lord. What gives?"
> >> He was preaching at a Bible conference at his own ministry
> >>facilities so I have no idea how old this sermon was but it
> >>couldn't be too old because he commented on his thirty years plus
> >>of ministry, and I know how old he is because he is my age.
> >>Plus, I have many of his tapes and I have heard him hundreds of
> >>times. Like I said, he is, still is, my favorite preacher because
> >>I agree with his interpretation and application of the Scriptures
> >>so often.
> >> His basic theme of the message was healing. He was trying to
> >>explain why some people don't keep, the key word here is keep,
> >>their healing. This, for me, even as a tongue talking, weirded
> >>out Charismatic, has always bothered me. I mean, everything God
> >>ever has done, up until now apparently, has been permanent. For
> >>example, the creation of all things, people he raised from the
> >>dead didn't lose there healing but later died natural deaths, the
> >>blind never went back to being blind, Lepers stayed healed, the
> >>woman with an issue of blood did not have to return for more help
> >>from Jesus, the lame continued walking, Lepers remained whole, the
> >>deaf kept hearing, and need I continue by listing all our Lord's
> >>miracles? So what is this Charismatic thing that you can lose
> >>your healing? Of course, the only answer that can be used is that
> >>it is our fault. Right? I mean, we done lost our faith. Right?
> >>come on, now, you know the routine. It doesn't sound like God to
> >>me no matter how you explain it.
> >> In this message, as is the case with so many messages by
> >>"Holy Spirit filled" Charismatics, if a healing doesn't work,
> >>especially one in which they have prayed, laid hands on, and
> >>those whom they have just chased demons out of, then your faith is
> >>the problem; not theirs. I mean, there faith is obviously working
> >>and yours ain't. Next time you are told that, ask for your money
> >>back and walk out of the place because you just been lied to. I
> >>mean, somebody is short changing the true nature and character of
> >>Jesus so get away from them. Now!
> >> In this particular sermon, the preacher told the story about
> >>a woman who had been miraculously healed of whatever she had. I
> >>can't recall now if it was cancer or just what but it was bad,
> >>inoperable, and something she would likely die of, again, as I
> >>recall the story that he told. Regardless of what it was, it was
> >>very serious; that much I remember. However, as is the case with
> >>so many who are healed, she lost it. Dad gum it. Can't God do
> >>anything right?
> >> He said that he asked the lady what she did the next morning
> >>when she realized, whatever the disease or malady was that had
> >>returned, and she said, "Well, I made an appointment and went in
> >>to see the doctor." He informed her that this was her first
> >>mistake, that is, she went to the doctor. He further said that
> >>she wasn't using her faith, as she once had, when she had been
> >>healed and thus she lost her healing. In other words, you are on
> >>your own even if you are a born again Christian. What happen to
> >>the preacher's prayer of faith over you anyway? Why is it all of
> >>the sudden, your fault, and not his? Where is his responsibility
> >>as "A Man Of God?" Did he lose his faith when you lost your
> >>healing? Come on! What's up here?
> >> My personal problem with this felonious theology is that I
> >>can't find any Scripture to confirm it. When I look at Jesus, or
> >>even His own disciples, I find that people got healed and it was
> >>permanent. Never once is there any record that anybody lost their
> >>healing because of a lack of faith. You will, of course, find
> >>passages where Jesus said, "Your faith hath made you whole," but
> >>you won't find them losing their healing later or did the Holy
> >>Spirit, the author of the Bible, just leave those negative things
> >>out? He sure didn't leave out the negative things in the Old
> >>Testament record. I can also point out many places where the Holy
> >>Spirit reports through the inspired writers of the New Testament,
> >>the times Believers were accused of failure due to their unbelief.
> >>Did you hear it? Due to their unbelief! The Lord's own disciples
> >>of our Lord were horribly guilty of this. (See Matthew 13:58,
> >>Mark 6:6, Mark 16:14 and especially examine very carefully, the
> >>story of the demon possessed son found in Matthew 17:14-21). If
> >>you are too lazy to look up the passages on your own, then skip
> >>reading now and just go back to listening to the dumb butt
> >>preacher who still is leading you around by the nose. That's
> >>easier than checking the bible out anyhow.
> >> These same people who believe you can lose your physical
> >>"healing," normally likewise believe that one can lose their
> >>salvation in exactly the same way. This is even in spite of the
> >>fact the Bible clearly states that "every man is given the
> >>measure of faith," but apparently, that faith can be lost and you
> >>can be lost again. Does this mean Jesus takes that faith away or
> >>just that it is our job to hold on to it so we don't lose our
> >>salvation? Which is it? Unfortunately, if losing your salvation
> >>is true, I must inform you that you can never ever be born again,
> >>or saved, a second, third, or fourth time. In short, you be up a
> >>shallow creek without a boat or a paddle. Why? Because Hebrews
> >>10:12 through 26 says the following, and read the whole lengthy
> >>passage for context, please. Why? Because it is how you
> >>interpret Scripture and thus learn to apply what you read.
> >>#12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for
> >>ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
> >>#13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his
> >>footstool.
> >>#14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are
> >>sanctified.
> >>#15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after
> >>that he had said before,
> >>#16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those
> >>days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in
> >>their minds will I write them;
> >>#17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
> >>#18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering
> >>for sin.
> >>#19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the
> >>holiest by the blood of Jesus,
> >>#20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us,
> >>through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
> >>#21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
> >>#22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of
> >>faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and
> >>our bodies washed with pure water.
> >>#23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without
> >>wavering; for he is faithful that promised;
> >>#24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to
> >>good works:
> >>#25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the
> >>manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the
> >>more, as ye see the day approaching.
> >>#26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the
> >>knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for
> >>sins."
> >> Let me point out what should be the obvious in this passage.
> >>First, verse 12 says, "But this man, after he had offered one
> >>sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God."
> >>It is pretty clear to me that this verse identifies the person of
> >>Jesus Christ as being our supreme sacrifice for sin. The
> >>terminology used of, "this man, after he had 'offered one
> >>sacrifice' for sins 'for ever,' makes it absolutely clear that His
> >>sacrifice for sin was once and for all; for ever. "Once" and "for
> >>ever" is pretty final; wouldn't you say? Oh, I'm sorry. I
> >>forgot. Unless, of course, you can lose your salvation. Some
> >>God. He can't even save his own without man's help, apparently.
> >> Secondly, verse 14 repeats the absolute truth of the prior
> >>theological statement by saying, #14 "For by one offering he hath
> >>perfected for ever them that are sanctified." My! What's this?
> >>How many offerings did Jesus offer? (He is the offering, in case
> >>you missed It. It says, "For by one offering." Just one, not two
> >>or three or more. This clearly means, if you lose your salvation
> >>for being a dumb bell and not watching your step, you cannot go
> >>back for seconds because only "one" offering has been given.
> >> It doesn't stop there. The same verse says the following:
> >>"he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." Perfected?
> >>What in the world is He talking about? It can't mean really
> >>perfect, can it? Yes, it literally means, in the Greek, to be made
> >>perfect or complete. If it really means perfected, you can't lose
> >>it, or can you? It sounds like perfect means perfect to me but
> >>then what do I know; I just read the Bible and take it for what it
> >>says in plain English and forego trying to read something else
> >>into it to fit my personal theology. Besides, if we are
> >>"sanctified," since when does God remove that state of
> >>sanctification once it is given? Oh, I see. We can lose our
> >>sanctification as well? Too bad the Greek word for "sanctify," in
> >>this passage means (to be made holy, complete, purified, and
> >>guiltless). In short, there is no room to interpret
> >>sanctification in terms of that which is temporarily given to some
> >>one until they screw up, sin, or stop acting like a child of the
> >>King. Boy, you almost had me worried there for a second.
> >> Thirdly, and I'm sorry but it would be wise to quote all
> >>three verses collectively in order to see it more clearly, this
> >>passage again says: #15 "Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a
> >>witness to us: for after that he had said before,
> >>#16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those
> >>days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in
> >>their minds will I write them;
> >>#17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."
> >> The "Holy Ghost" is our witness that these things are true.
> >>That's good. So that means we cannot claim we lost the Holy
> >>Spirit in the process, unless, of course, you simply don't know
> >>how to read. I suppose, if the Holy Spirit is less than God, He
> >>could, in fact, stop witnessing, stop sealing our salvation, and
> >>just move on to do something else but that isn't in the Bible
> >>either. Honestly. We are having a terrible time getting away
> >>from that bible stuff, aren't we?
> >> Next, in verse #16, we are flatly told, this is a covenant.
> >>What? Well, shoot, if you can lose your salvation, then a man can
> >>be uncircumcised after being circumcised. ouch! Right? That's
> >>the covenant of God given to Abraham, whose seed we are, (See
> >>Romans 4:11-13), and if you have the time, read all of Romans
> >>Chapter 2 concerning who is a Jew and who is circumcised and who
> >>is of faith. That will clear up any confusion you might have. Of
> >>course, if you don't take time to read those passages, you likely
> >>are still going to believe a lie. Unless, of course, you are
> >>unawares of what circumcision is physically and what it means
> >>Biblically. In that case, physically, I mean, check a good
> >>medical book out of your local library. Your Bible explains the
> >>theological aspect of circumcision but then again, you'll have to
> >>read it to find out about it. If you won't do that, read your
> >>Bible, I mean, you likely won't go to the library either so just
> >>forget what I suggested.
> >>Verse #16 continues by saying "saith the Lord, I will put my laws
> >>into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." He,
> >>Jesus, the Holy Spirit bearing witness, puts His law into our
> >>hearts?" Furthermore, He, Jesus, the Holy Spirit bearing witness,
> >>writes it in our minds?" Wow! I guess, if one can lose their
> >>salvation, God has a big huge rubber eraser some place in the
> >>universe He must have to use occasionally. No, I'm not trying to
> >>be funny. He writes it what Revelation calls "The Lamb's Book Of
> >>Life," or just "The Book Of Life." Get it? "Life?" Not death?
> >>(See Revelation 3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:12, 20:15, 21:27, and 22:29).
> >>That last reference is the only one I am aware of whereby one can
> >>lose their eternal salvation and this is committed by adding, or
> >>changing, or altering, God's Word. So be careful. Oh, yes.
> >>Philippians 4:3 also mentioned "The Book Of Life," but if all the
> >>other references don't apply, that one won't either so it is up to
> >>you and what you believe, I guess.
> >> So, what in the Sam Hill are we then going to do with Hebrews
> >>Chapter 12 and verse #17 that says, "their sins and iniquities
> >>will I remember no more." If you lose your salvation, you know,
> >>the thing the Holy Ghost bears witness of, and comes to dwell,
> >>literally, inside of our newly recreated spirit, (See 2
> >>Corinthians 5:17 and John 14:14-20), which even says that Jesus
> >>dwells within us, but I digress, repeating myself, what are we
> >>going to have to do to explain this promise away? You can use, of
> >>course, if your agenda is to make your theology fit what you say
> >>you believe, that God has a failing memory relating to salvation,
> >>or some lame thing like that, but no matter what you say, you
> >>can't make God remember something He says He can't remember
> >>concerning your sin he has totally forgotten about. Well, unless
> >>you don't believe the Bible but I thought you claimed you were a
> >>Bible Believer. If you have further doubt, explain to me what
> >>Psalm 103:12 is talking about. "As far "as the east is from the
> >>west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us." That's
> >>right; you can't explain it any other way than truthfully. You
> >>either take God at His Word or you don't. Yes, we are getting
> >>dangerously close to why people "lose their healing," so hold on a
> >>minute.
> >> It is actually verse #18 that really rattles the, (you can
> >>lose your salvation), or (healing), outfit. Let me quote verse
> >>#17 with it, though, so you'll get the contextual feel for the
> >>full meaning and impact of the verse. Here we go. Strap yourself
> >>in.
> >>#17 "And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
> >>#18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering
> >>for sin."
> >> Woe horse! But don't stop here. Let's jump all the way down
> >>to verse #26 to finish the thought of the theology being depicted
> >>within the complete text.
> >>#26 "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the
> >>knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for
> >>sins."
> >> Bingo, Brother! Do you see it? No more offering for sins if
> >>you lose your salvation. Step lightly, young man, or you might
> >>end up in hell even if you once were on your way to Heaven. Man,
> >>is this weird theology or what? And people say I'm crazy.
> >> Let me say it one more time so you don't overlook it.
> >>According to these verses, if you are born again, and sin
> >>willfully again, you cannot ever be born again a second time
> >>because Jesus cannot go back to the cross and die for you and your
> >>sins all over again and then be bodily resurrected on the third
> >>day. You are done stuck going to hell period; it is final. Yes,
> >>some people believe you can get saved, born again, every day, if
> >>that's what it takes, but they must be reading a different Bible.
> >>In that case, run!
> >> Let me cut to the chase, therefore, and ask you this
> >>question. Is our salvation a covenant we have with God, the Holy
> >>Spirit bearing witness of such, or is our salvation something we
> >>can change once it is God applied? If you can read, you already
> >>know the answer. If healing, therefore, is also a covenant
> >>relationship with God, and it is, can we then lose that, too,
> >>just like our salvation? Do you see why I started with the true
> >>interpretation of the doctrine of our eternal salvitic
> >>relationship with God? They go together; they cannot be
> >>separated.
> >> Yes, yes, I know. You have one very important question to
> >>ask so go ahead, right now, and get it off your chest. I'm
> >>listening.
> >> "Well, if we can't lose our salvation and we shouldn't be
> >>able to lose our physical miraculous healing, what about this
> >>woman who went to the doctor that the preacher talked about on the
> >>radio?"
> >> Excellent question. The woman, in this story, was told she
> >>lost her healing because she lost her faith. Sorry, Charlie.
> >>Ain't in the Bible, no how. No, she didn't stop believing either.
> >>No, it wasn't a big lack of trust in God either. "Then what was
> >>it?" In whom was this woman believing when she "received her
> >>healing?" Take a wild guess. The preacher who told her about
> >>this miracle she could have if she just believed? You are getting
> >>warmer. In whose words did she believe, do you suppose, when she
> >>"got her miraculous healing which she later lost?" In this story,
> >>the preacher, my favorite preacher, told her to go back to doing
> >>what she did when she got healed. No! No! No! That's what got
> >>her to losing her healing in the first place. Why in God's name
> >>would you instruct her to do what she did before? Healing isn't
> >>of you or me or any hair brained theologically screwed up radio
> >>preach or pastor. Salvation, and healing, is of the Lord, stupid.
> >>Come on. In whom do you believe? The preacher? The pastor? Me?
> >>Some dumb Christian book called the Purple Propelled Life?
> >>Promise Holders? Some men's organization called the Advanced
> >>Christian Porno Problem Solvers who meet on the internet, charging
> >>thirty dollars a month for membership dues, and meets once a week?
> >>Give me a break. For crying out loud, to whom are you listening
> >>to in the first place? What happened to believing God and His
> >>eternal, unchanging, eternal, Holy Word just like it reads? I
> >>swear, if the government band all Christian broadcasting
> >>tomorrow, I think I'd shout, "Glory. Back to church we go." At
> >>least then, foolish theology will only be spread by word of mouth,
> >>or, God forbid, by New York Times best selling books.
> >> Let me suggest something at this point. From now on, anybody
> >>who is going to lay hands on you for a physical healing, ask them
> >>if they, the key word here is they, will give you a 100 percent
> >>guaranteed promise that you will, first, be healed, and second, it
> >>will be permanent. I guarantee, and promise you, that they will
> >>refuse to lay hands on you for healing if you ask that question
> >>first. What if preachers and pastors suddenly started taking
> >>responsibility for those with whom they pray? What if they blamed
> >>themselves for a person "losing their healing," instead of blaming
> >>the person they prayed for? Let me prove something to you right
> >>here and now.
> >> Let's use this same favorite preacher of mine as an example.
> >>My young son has his third degree black belt in Karate. He is a
> >>judge at tournaments, he has been an instructor at a Karate
> >>school, he has trophies, a broken foot with a steel plate and six
> >>screws in it, he has been hospitalized with concussions, and he
> >>has, for that matter, done a little bleeding along the way, too.
> >>So, during one of these healing services, following the message of
> >>course, few ever get healed miraculously before the preaching, and
> >>especially before the offering, what if I went forward to be
> >>prayed for and healed. I am totally blind with two artificial
> >>eyes. I can take them out to prove it. Let's say I bring along
> >>my son with the black belts in Karate. Ok? So far; so good.
> >>Now, when the preacher comes up to lay hands on me for a for real
> >>recreative miracle, you know, the ones like Jesus often did, let's
> >>say that I ask him if he, the preacher, believes I am going to be
> >>receiving my sight with brand new eyeballs. You know, just like
> >>the blind man in John Chapter 9 who let Jesus spit in the dirt,
> >>make clay, and slap the gooey mess right in his empty eye sockets.
> >>How weird is that. Sort of like when Jesus stuck his fingers in
> >>the deaf man's ears, spit and touched his tongue, of all things,
> >>and the old boy started hearing. That's in Mark Chapter 7 if you
> >>are worried about what I said. But, then, maybe he lost his
> >>hearing again later. That Jesus! I tell you what. Sometimes I
> >>wonder if He knows what He is doing without all these preachers
> >>telling Him first what to be doing and saying. Now back to my
> >>story.
> >> I already know I believe so I want to know if the preacher
> >>truly believes and will stake his ministerial reputation on what
> >>he says he believes and what he is about to pray. Ok? I mean,
> >>the disciples did so why not those of us who preach and teach that
> >>we know what the Bible says. By the way, I tell the people with
> >>whom I pray that I promise they will experience healing and that I
> >>guarantee it will be permanent, so what's the big deal here? No
> >>guts? No glory: personal glory? I'm confused at your
> >>reluctance.
> >> So, now. If, by chance, I can get him to go this far, I will
> >>then lift his leg so my son can, with one hand, or one foot, break
> >>his leg. Then I will ask him to show me his faith or does he wish
> >>me to call an ambulance just before my son breaks his other leg.
> >>"Not fair," you say? Why not? Faith is faith, or are you now
> >>going to tell me there are degrees, or levels, of faith that work
> >>only under certain situations? Get a life and call me back when
> >>you have something worth saying, or when they remove your cast.
> >>For now, your teaching is not just weak, it isn't even Biblical
> >>and stop asking for my offering on your radio program until you
> >>teach the truth about who God really is. While you are at it,
> >>return all the money you've receive thus far from people who
> >>believe you were telling them the truth, too. Otherwise, get a
> >>job.
> >>
> >>It Sounds Like God To Me.
> >>www.SafePlaceFellowship.com
> >
> >
> >No virus found in this incoming message.
> >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> >Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1696 - Release Date:
> >9/28/2008 1:30 PM
>
> John
>
|
