Sorry, it got scrambled...don't know why. This is "fixed".
DDeBar
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> From: DDeBar <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [CHOMSKY] socialist unions
> Date: Monday, June 02, 1997 7:07 PM
>
> ----------
> > From: Paul E J King <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [CHOMSKY] socialist unions
> > Date: Saturday, May 17, 1997 11:25 AM
> >
> > They are not a product of an understanding either of Socialism or the
> > Soviet Union, either, unfortunately. The Soviet Union was never
socialist
> > except in name. In fact it was a brutal tyranny ruled by a Nomenklatura
> > led by a brutal, and radically undemocratic dictator. The situation
since
> > the collapse is about the same. The upper class in the new "capitalist"
> > Russia is simply the old Nomenklatura. The plundering of the poor by
> > the rich continues on as before, and the suppression of the poor is
about
> > the same, the poverty is the worst it has ever been even in comparison
to
> > the rule by the Czars and the Ukranians under Stalin during the famine.
>
> Please excuse me, but this is a bit much, even for regurgitated
propaganda.
> Please quantify, particularly that last "comparison". It is my position
> that you do not know WHAT the hell you are talking abiut...please prove
the
> contrary position.
>
> > They are only happy to be in a country that is wealthy enough to
sustain
> a
> > plundering of the poor by the rich while comparitively not being hard
> > on the poor, assuming that they wound up in Canada or the US or some
> other
> > advanced industrialised country, which the Soviet Union never was. What
> > these people understand as socialism was fed to them by Politburo
> > propaganda. They were always "on the path" to socialism, but never
there.
> > In fact I am surprised you have never heard the Soviet riddle: "What is
> > the next step on the path to true socialism? Answer: Alcoholism." The
> > Soviets had a huge problem with alcohol abuse (a symptom of living a
big
> > lie, more than likely).
>
> I wonder what path the "socialist" countries you favor followed to their
"socialism"?
> And what exactly is the drug use in Amsterdam symptomatic of?
>
> > Not only is it not abundantly clear that socialism has failed, from
your
> > example, it can be used as proof that it has been *highly* successful.
> > First, rid your mind of any illusions that the Soviet Union was ever
> > socialist in anything but name. There are other countries, such as
> Sweden,
> > Finland, the Netherlands, and Canada that implement socialist policies,
> > and have very healthy standards of living. The proof is there. To the
> > extent that social programs are being cut these days, then "socialism
> has
> > failed."
>
> I have labored under the understanding that socialism required public
> ownership of the means of production. How, exactly, did the "Socialism"
of
> Scandiavia, the Netherlands and Canada (!) square with the Royal holdings
> in these countries, and, for that matter, with the holdings of
> multi-nationals and small owners?
>
> Have you ever read any of the body of property law of any of these
> countries? Does your estimation of whether or not they are socialist
result
> from this study? If not, from what does it result?
>
> >
> > I hope that I have educated you to this end. In short, if you are
looking
> > for socialism, don't look to Russia, Cuba or China. Look to the
> > "capitalist" economies that have "dared" to institute socialist
policies.
>
> !!!
>
> > You will be very surprised at how civilised and well-maintained these
> > countries are.
> >
> > > Michael Coghlan.
>
> Michael -
>
> I have read some of your posts, and often agree with your perspective, so
I
> hope you don't find the above offensive. However, you are making some
> pretty broad statements without offering a scintilla of evidence to
> substantiate them. That is, of course, your right, but it does little
> except to make the search for truth a little harder for the rest of us.
>
> - Don DeBar
>
> >
> > ====================================================================
> > Paul King email: [log in to unmask]
> > 309-1660 Bloor Street East Mississauga ON L4X 1R9
> > ====================================================================
> > Come visit my web page at: http://cgi.idirect.com/index///pking.html
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