On Sat, 17 May 1997, Michael Coghlan wrote:

> Bill Bartlett wrote:
>
>
> >But I don't support the "seizure of power" by anyone, it has to be the
> >express will of the people. If we say its OK for us or ours to seize power,
> >we're on shaky ground condemning others for the same. It might be some way
> >off as you say, and I think Chomsky has done quite a good job in explaining
> >the mechanics of how the present system maintains 'consent'. But you can't
> >fool all of the people all of the time as they say, so 'manufacturing
> >consent' isn't the whole story, nor a final solution. Material
> >circumstances, ie the inherent ECONOMIC flaws of capitalism will play a big
> >part.
> >
> >Bill Bartlett
> >Bracknell Tas.
> >
> >___________________________________________________________________________
>
> Reading phrases like "economic flaws of capitalism" in a discussion about
> "socialist unions" makes me wonder. Are we still entertaining notions of
> socialism being a better system than capitalism after the upheaval of the
> last ten years caused by the collapse of the Soviet Union? My comments do
> not stem from a familiarity with Chomsky's theories.

They are not a product of an understanding either of Socialism or the
Soviet Union, either, unfortunately. The Soviet Union was never socialist
except in name. In fact it was a brutal tyranny ruled by a Nomenklatura
led by a brutal, and radically undemocratic dictator. The situation since
the collapse is about the same. The upper class in the new "capitalist"
Russia is simply the old Nomenklatura. The plundering of the poor by
the rich continues on as before, and the suppression of the poor is about
the same, the poverty is the worst it has ever been even in comparison to
the rule by the Czars and the Ukranians under Stalin during the famine.

> They are more a product
> of working with people who have fled socialist tyranny around the world and
> who scoff at any attempt to convey respect for anything socialist. These
> people are simply relieved to be in a capitalist society - with all its flaws.

They are only happy to be in a country that is wealthy enough to sustain a
plundering of the poor by the rich while comparitively not being hard
on the poor, assuming that they wound up in Canada or the US or some other
advanced industrialised country, which the Soviet Union never was. What
these people understand as socialism was fed to them by Politburo
propaganda. They were always "on the path" to socialism, but never there.
In fact I am surprised you have never heard the Soviet riddle: "What is
the next step on the path to true socialism? Answer: Alcoholism." The
Soviets had a huge problem with alcohol abuse (a symptom of living a big
lie, more than likely).

>
> I would have thought that it was abundantly clear - and again this is not
> from a theoretical standpoint - that socialism has failed in practice and
> that capitalist societies have shown themselves to be remarkably resilient
> in providing comparatively better lives for their citizens. People can
> debate the advantages of one against the other on a theoretical level, but
> in practice the answer is clear. Socialism has failed.
>

Not only is it not abundantly clear that socialism has failed, from your
example, it can be used as proof that it has been *highly* successful.
First, rid your mind of any illusions that the Soviet Union was ever
socialist in anything but name. There are other countries, such as Sweden,
Finland, the Netherlands, and Canada that implement socialist policies,
and have very healthy standards of living. The proof is there. To the
extent that social programs are being cut these days,  then "socialism has
failed."

> This is not meant to denigrate the ideas put forward by Bill Bartlett, Brian
> Callahan et al, or to directly contribute to the discussion on socialist
> unions, but I'd be interested to hear people's responses on this.
>

I hope that I have educated you to this end. In short, if you are looking
for socialism, don't look to Russia, Cuba or China. Look to the
"capitalist" economies that have "dared" to institute socialist policies.
You will be very surprised at how civilised and well-maintained these
countries are.

> Michael Coghlan.
>

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