<<Disclaimer: Verify this information before applying it to your situation.>>

Since I'm being quoted on things said long ago, few of which I now
believe, I'd better set the record straight. First, I REMOVE discussion of
allergy & intolerance from the original question (and why), and second,
and then provide the details on the cite from Marsh that I mentioned
before.

The original question asked for the difference between celiac disease and
"non-celiac intolerance".  That can be discussed without worrying about
whether to call this non-celiac response, an intolerance or allergy. By
response, I mean, some gastrointestinal or other short-term reaction to
the food when tested blind.

(When I questioned the list owners off list about the use of the word
"intolerance" in the name of the list, I was told that yes, it was
technically incorrect, but that there were strong opinions about leaving
it that way. The result is a wide variety of interpretations by the
members of this list. NO, don't respond in this thread with your
interpretation  or whether we should have one dividing line between the
two. (Start another thread for that.) )

So rephrased, the question here is  what is the difference between a
celiac gluten response and, as experienced by some, a non-celiac reaction
to gluten? Before I said:

>>My non-professional stab at the difference...
>>
>>Both can lead to intestinal damage. There's a table in
>>Marsh's book showing that --page 155 , figure 6.13. Type 3 damage ("flat
>>destuctive" ) can occur from milk, soya, egg.... as well as celiac
>>disease.

This is from the 1992 book edited by Michael Marsh, " On Coeliac Disease"
in the chapter "Mucosal Pathology". Marsh is the internationally
recognized expert on this topic and wrote this chapter: he first
recognized the sequential nature of gluten intestinal attack and
identified  five stages of  reaction to gluten (0 - 4). This table has
five columns, one for each stage of attack. Rows correspond to various
medical conditions. Entries in the table are then + or - ( yes or no)
whether each stage is found in that condition. The celiac response
includes Types 1, 2, 3, and 4. Type 3 is the so-called "flat destructive"
and Type 4 (unique to celiac) is called "irreversible
hypoplastic/atrophic". ( Maybe relevant for the question here is that the
condition of gluten challenge includes Types 1, 2, and 3, but not 4,
suggesting how a celiac diagnosis might be missed with inadquate gluten
consumption. )

Of food reactions, Marsh says in the caption to this figure, "Food-based
host responses seem to be based on similar host-directed forms of mucosal
immunopathology." Reactions to egg, soya, chicken, and fish are given as
showing only a Type 3 lesion, while that to milk (protein, I presume)
includes Types 1, 2, and 3.

Could one kind of non-celiac response to gluten be just a Type 3
intestinal lesion??  I found no Medline articles with  food-based
destruction of villi (Type 3 reponse) in adults, only in young children.
Marsh does give references in that chapter, but I don't have convenient
access to it now.

Bear in mind, finally, that this source is old. More may be known now.

                           Kemp Randolph
                           Long Island


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