Hi Again Ken,
I view religions from a point of logic - and to that end none of them make sense. But each is step hopefully to a kinder more loving set of people. The people many times really mean well but we ain't Gods - so even our best falls short. We shouldn't argue that but accept it and try to be better. As a child I glommed on to thou shalt not kill. I even carry the bugs back out of the house - ridiculous - yes but I keep that commandment - my soul grieves for the roaches and fleas and misquitos I begrudging kill. I can not reconcil killing in way. I apologize to the Goddess for killing her children when I do. And I know I know I have thousands of bugs souls on my soul. and that sounds silly to you. But I can't replace their lives and I feel guilty and bad - I have violated the Thou shalt not kill. Hey can I do guilt well - I shuld be Catholic - GRIN
Trisha
> well, trish you are right, godless and barbaric are
> not equal.
>
> --- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Hi Ken,
> >
> > That was more a comment against the godless
> > Romans - one doesn't have =
> > to be Godless to be barbaric.
> >
> > Trisha
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ken barber [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 2:46 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: religion and politics
> > (long-ish); was RE: Brother in Law
> > >=20
> > > there has been many atrosities committed in the
> > name
> > > of G-d that he had nothing to do with it.
> > >=20
> > > --- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > Oh Kyle,
> > > >
> > > > I love it, when you get into the fray. The
> > only
> > > > correction I would =3D
> > > > add - The Romans were not godless, they had a
> > > > pantheon of Gods - they =3D
> > > > where no different than any of the other ancient
> > > > civilizations - we =3D
> > > > can't judge those civilizations with our morals
> > - it
> > > > took building on =3D
> > > > those societies to get where we are today. And
> > if do
> > > > - then we need to =3D
> > > > remember - the Burning tImes and the Spanish
> > > > Inquistion - no one gets =3D
> > > > away scot free - despite everything we know - we
> > > > still don't really act =3D
> > > > like civilized people. We just have a slightly
> > > > higher level of barberism =3D
> > > > today.
> > > >
> > > > Trisha
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Trisha Cummings, Data Analyst =3D20
> > > > Synectics For Management Decisions, Inc
> > > > 1901 North Moore Street, Suite 900
> > > > Arlington, Virginia 22209
> > > > Ph# 703-807-2345
> > > > Fax 703-528-6421
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > What gets me is that many conservative
> > Christians
> > > > (which describes ME =3D
> > > > in
> > > > > only in basic theology) feel that the US
> > should
> > > > be/was a theocracy. =3D
> > > > If they
> > > > > would only read the teachings of the
> > individual
> > > > they purport to
> > > > > follow--Jesus--they would understand that the
> > > > biblical theocracy only =3D
> > > > went
> > > > > as far as Israel (ex. Mt 22:15-22, the entire
> > > > chapter of Acts 28).
> > > > >=3D20
> > > > > In the New Testament, the church is not
> > expected
> > > > to function as a =3D
> > > > nation
> > > > > state. On the contrary, the program is clearly
> > > > different as witnessed =3D
> > > > by the
> > > > > call to submit to, and obey the Roman
> > > > government--one of the most =3D
> > > > godless
> > > > > and brutal governments in history. (Rom. 13:1)
> > The
> > > > New Testament is =3D
> > > > devoid
> > > > > of any call to take over society or to run
> > society
> > > > God's way. =3D
> > > > Unfortunately,
> > > > > many Bible interpreters continue to read the
> > > > Covenantal promises and
> > > > > warnings addressed to Israel in the Old>
> > Testament
> > > > as though they apply
> > > > > either to the church, or to the United States
> > (or
> > > > other countries).
> > > > >=3D20
> > > > >=3D20
> > > > > A very common example of this confusion is the
> > > > often quoted passage in =3D
> > > > 2
> > > > > Chronicles 7:13 "If I shut up the heavens so
> > that
> > > > there is no rain, or =3D
> > > > if I
> > > > > command the locust to devour the land, or if I
> > > > send pestilence among =3D
> > > > My
> > > > > people, and My people who are called by My
> > name
> > > > humble themselves and =3D
> > > > pray,
> > > > > and seek My face and turn from their wicked
> > ways,
> > > > then I will hear =3D
> > > > from
> > > > > heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal
> > > > their land." It is a =3D
> > > > mistake
> > > > > to apply this passage to the United States? It
> > > > refers to the
> > > > > cursing/blessing section in the book of
> > > > Deuteronomy. The people who =3D
> > > > are
> > > > > called by God's name are Israel. There is in
> > fact
> > > > no such promise =3D
> > > > extended
> > > > > to other countries.
> > > > >=3D20
> > > > >=3D20
> > > > > One qualification is needed on this point. In
> > the
> > > > ancient world, there =3D
> > > > was
> > > > > no opportunity to vote on government issues or
> > > > candidates. We do not =3D
> > > > know
> > > > > what God would have said if there was.
> > Probably, a
> > > > good ethical case =3D
> > > > can be
> > > > > made for Christian activism in politics as
> > long as
> > > > it falls short of
> > > > > attempts to establish a Christian state.
> > > > >=3D20
> > > > > History is full of examples of catastrophic
> > > > results when the church =3D
> > > > has
> > > > > concluded that it is to run the state. A
> > nation>=20
> > > > state often has to =3D
> > > > operate
> > > > > in the area of compulsion, punishment and even
> > > > war. All of these =3D
> > > > things are
> > > > > inappropriate for the church. The church needs
> > to
> > > > keep crystal clear
> > > > > loyalties, excluding any non-biblical
> > insertion
> > > > into Christian =3D
> > > > doctrine.
> > > > >=3D20
> > > > >=3D20
> > > > > Manipulators use values similar or even
> > identical
> > > > to those in the =3D
> > > > Bible to
> > > > > get Christians to back their agendas. For
> > > > instance, no two themes are =3D
> > > > more
> > > > > universal in world religions than the sanctity
> > of
> > > > the family and the
> > > > > sacredness of the given cultural-national
> > > > heritage. Oriental religion =3D
> > > > often
> > > > > actually worships parents and ancestors. Islam
> > > > views the state as =3D
> > > > expressly
> > > > > a religious entity. Most oral religions are
> > one
> > > > and the same as the
> > > > > government of the tribe. This has tended to be
> > > > true of Christianity as =3D
> > > > well
> > > > > in Europe. The medieval church was convinced
> > that
> > > > the state was to =3D
> > > > operate
> > > > > under the spiritual authority of the church.
> > > > >=3D20
> > > > >=3D20
> > > > > Linking the universal appeal of blood and soil
> > > > values with patriotic =3D
> > > > values>=3D20
> > > > > and religion leads to the formation of a civil
> > > > religion which is =3D
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
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