Hi Ken,
That was more a comment against the godless Romans - one doesn't have to be Godless to be barbaric.
Trisha
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ken barber [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 2:46 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: religion and politics (long-ish); was RE: Brother in Law
>
> there has been many atrosities committed in the name
> of G-d that he had nothing to do with it.
>
> --- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Oh Kyle,
> >
> > I love it, when you get into the fray. The only
> > correction I would =
> > add - The Romans were not godless, they had a
> > pantheon of Gods - they =
> > where no different than any of the other ancient
> > civilizations - we =
> > can't judge those civilizations with our morals - it
> > took building on =
> > those societies to get where we are today. And if do
> > - then we need to =
> > remember - the Burning tImes and the Spanish
> > Inquistion - no one gets =
> > away scot free - despite everything we know - we
> > still don't really act =
> > like civilized people. We just have a slightly
> > higher level of barberism =
> > today.
> >
> > Trisha
> >
> >
> > Trisha Cummings, Data Analyst =20
> > Synectics For Management Decisions, Inc
> > 1901 North Moore Street, Suite 900
> > Arlington, Virginia 22209
> > Ph# 703-807-2345
> > Fax 703-528-6421
> >
> >
> > > What gets me is that many conservative Christians
> > (which describes ME =
> > in
> > > only in basic theology) feel that the US should
> > be/was a theocracy. =
> > If they
> > > would only read the teachings of the individual
> > they purport to
> > > follow--Jesus--they would understand that the
> > biblical theocracy only =
> > went
> > > as far as Israel (ex. Mt 22:15-22, the entire
> > chapter of Acts 28).
> > >=20
> > > In the New Testament, the church is not expected
> > to function as a =
> > nation
> > > state. On the contrary, the program is clearly
> > different as witnessed =
> > by the
> > > call to submit to, and obey the Roman
> > government--one of the most =
> > godless
> > > and brutal governments in history. (Rom. 13:1) The
> > New Testament is =
> > devoid
> > > of any call to take over society or to run society
> > God's way. =
> > Unfortunately,
> > > many Bible interpreters continue to read the
> > Covenantal promises and
> > > warnings addressed to Israel in the Old Testament
> > as though they apply
> > > either to the church, or to the United States (or
> > other countries).
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > A very common example of this confusion is the
> > often quoted passage in =
> > 2
> > > Chronicles 7:13 "If I shut up the heavens so that
> > there is no rain, or =
> > if I
> > > command the locust to devour the land, or if I
> > send pestilence among =
> > My
> > > people, and My people who are called by My name
> > humble themselves and =
> > pray,
> > > and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways,
> > then I will hear =
> > from
> > > heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal
> > their land." It is a =
> > mistake
> > > to apply this passage to the United States? It
> > refers to the
> > > cursing/blessing section in the book of
> > Deuteronomy. The people who =
> > are
> > > called by God's name are Israel. There is in fact
> > no such promise =
> > extended
> > > to other countries.
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > One qualification is needed on this point. In the
> > ancient world, there =
> > was
> > > no opportunity to vote on government issues or
> > candidates. We do not =
> > know
> > > what God would have said if there was. Probably, a
> > good ethical case =
> > can be
> > > made for Christian activism in politics as long as
> > it falls short of
> > > attempts to establish a Christian state.
> > >=20
> > > History is full of examples of catastrophic
> > results when the church =
> > has
> > > concluded that it is to run the state. A nation>
> > state often has to =
> > operate
> > > in the area of compulsion, punishment and even
> > war. All of these =
> > things are
> > > inappropriate for the church. The church needs to
> > keep crystal clear
> > > loyalties, excluding any non-biblical insertion
> > into Christian =
> > doctrine.
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > Manipulators use values similar or even identical
> > to those in the =
> > Bible to
> > > get Christians to back their agendas. For
> > instance, no two themes are =
> > more
> > > universal in world religions than the sanctity of
> > the family and the
> > > sacredness of the given cultural-national
> > heritage. Oriental religion =
> > often
> > > actually worships parents and ancestors. Islam
> > views the state as =
> > expressly
> > > a religious entity. Most oral religions are one
> > and the same as the
> > > government of the tribe. This has tended to be
> > true of Christianity as =
> > well
> > > in Europe. The medieval church was convinced that
> > the state was to =
> > operate
> > > under the spiritual authority of the church.
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > Linking the universal appeal of blood and soil
> > values with patriotic =
> > values>=20
> > > and religion leads to the formation of a civil
> > religion which is =
> > sometimes
> > > only nominally Christian. For instance, the
> > implication of a prominent
> > > evangelical leading whole football stadiums in
> > prayer before games is =
> > clear-
> > > -all or most of those present must be Christians.
> > It is easy to see =
> > why
> > > people begin to believe that Christianity is
> > synonymous with American
> > > citizenship or church membership.
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > This nominal Christianity is one of the most
> > deadly threats to real
> > > Christianity for two reasons. In the first place,
> > it causes people to
> > > believe that they are Christians when they are
> > not, and secondly, it
> > > misrepresents Christianity to the secular world.
> > Instead of seeing =
> > real
> > > vibrant spiritual living on the part of the
> > church, society sees a
> > > Christianity that is plagued by confusion and
> > mediocrity.
> > >=20
> > > Stepping, sweating, off the soapbox pulpit.
> > Anybody got any snakes I =
> > can
> > > handle? I hear that snake venom is good for
> > spasms...wait a minute, =
> > never
> > > mind, that's honeybees, not snakes.
> > >=20
> > > Kyle
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ken barber [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:34 AM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: Brother in Law
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
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