Kyle and Beth,
For those of us with no military background, what are APFT and DADT?
I also wonder if Dick's witch hunt for gays is based on a reaction to his
daughter? I think Mary came out of the closet about the time of the Gulf
War.
On Dec 11, 2007 6:18 AM, Cleveland, Kyle E. <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> Beth, you're right, of course. I was thinking pre-G.H.W Bush. I'm not
> so sure about the being "tossed out if someone thought you were gay"
> part unless the accuser had an ulterior motive. I do know that some
> folks were "outed" by their lovers--that was ugly.
>
> I will have to dig for the stats, but the respective services had
> disproportionate numbers of gay folks--at least in the '80s and '90s.
> The Navy had the greatest number, followed by the Air Force, Army and
> lastly, the Marines. I don't know about the CG. They were still
> considered outside of the "Armed Forces" back then.
>
> For the most part, homosexuality is becoming a non-issue for folks in
> uniform--especially among the younger troops. I admit this is only
> anecdotal evidence, but the kids in my classes don't seem to care. I
> will qualify that statement though: In some combat situations, people
> are forced into incredibly intimate situations--and I'm not just talking
> about sharing a rack.
>
> When the Armored Cav units rolled up from Kuwait to Baghdad over the
> three weeks in March 2003, they were buttoned up almost 100% of the time
> due to the fear of a chem attack. Unlike earlier tanks, the M-1 Abrams
> doesn't have a drop panel underneath that the soldiers can do their
> business. There are urinal tubes, but for defecation another soldier
> has to hold a plastic back while you take care of things.
>
> Tankers were interviewed a couple of years ago (I think it was in
> military.com) about their feelings regarding sharing a tank with gays.
> The Armored Cav guys overwhelmingly viewed it in a negative light.
>
> What I think you'll see happening is that the military culture will
> change and that gays will be integrated into the forces and the
> attitudes will follow.
>
> Regarding women in combat, I will say that I have no problem with women
> in overt combat roles, though the rate of pregnancy among females
> deployed in theater has soared prior to the rate before units were not
> deployed. Putting a bunch of 18-21 year olds in incredibly stressful
> situations is going to be a trigger for sexual activity. Intimacy
> creates comfort. The physical touch afforded by sex is an avenue that
> many fighting men and women use to create "calm". This is nothing new,
> except that in previous conflicts (with male-only warfighters)
> prostitution served the same purpose.
> Women have proven to have just as strong a "warrior ethos" as men. I
> don't buy the different APFT scoring for men and women. These were
> created when there was still a prevailing notion that the bar should be
> lower for women because they, as a general rule, were weaker than their
> male counterparts. Baloney! These days there are so many kids coming in
> that have to go through remedial PT that neither sex is especially fit
> (blame computer games for that).
>
> For me, personally, I don't care what my soldiers do when they're not in
> uniform. As long as they can pass the "piss test" for drugs I'm happy.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cerebral Palsy List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> Of ehthiers
> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:25 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: what would you do?
>
> Actually Kyle, the under the radar thing before DADT is wrong. I was in
> during the Gulf War and I can tell you that Cheney has always been on a
> witch hunt for gays. You could be tossed out if someone thought you
> were
> gay and a lot of money was used to investigate people to prove they were
> gay. Trust me, more men in the military are gay than you would suspect,
> and
> a lot less women are than you think.
> Adultery was rarely prosecuted to the extent being gay was and
> basically,
> anything other than the missionary position is against the UCMJ so,
> about
> half the sailors in the fleet could have been prosecuted. <grin>
>
> beth t. the OT
>
> PS. I didn't watch the general and quite frankly don't care what a
> person's
> orientation is, let them serve if they want...
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cerebral Palsy List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > On Behalf Of Cleveland, Kyle E.
> > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:12 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: what would you do?
> >
> > Ken, et al,
> >
> > I know this started off as a funny, but this Ken's fellow
> > Ken's talking about really started a firestorm of discussion
> > in the military community. Here's some background on the
> > fellow from the wire service:
> >
> > "Keith Kerr, retired Colonel., U.S. Army; retired Brigadier
> > General, California National Reserve, who submitted a
> > question about gays in the military, is a member of Hillary
> > Clinton's 'Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transexual Americans
> > For Hillary' Steering Committee. He's also part of a film
> > production crew trying overturn the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
> > policy."
> >
> > From his bio on Servicemembers Legal Defense Network where he
> > is on the Military Advisory Council:
> >
> >
> > "He retired from the U. S. Army Reserve in 1986 with the rank
> > of Colonel and was commissioned in the California State
> > Military Reserve (California National Guard) on 15 March
> > 1986, where his assignments were Inspector Generaland later,
> > Chief of Staff. He was appointed Commanding General, Northern
> > Area Command, CSMR, with headquarters at Alameda Naval Supply
> > Depot, Alameda, CA and promoted to Brigadier General on 21
> > February 1991. He held this position until reassigned to
> > State Headquarters on 31 July 1995. General Kerr retired on 1
> > June 1996 after
> > 43 years of service to the United States and the State of California."
> >
> > "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was one of the worst edicts to come
> > out of the Clinton White House. In a misguided attempt to
> > help the cause of gay folks in the military, it actually
> > forced many out of the system. There have always been
> > bunches of gays in the military--especially since the
> > integration of women into Combat Support and Combat Service
> > Support teams.
> >
> > Prior to DADT, nobody cared because gay folks steered
> > themselves toward the services and jobs that were under the
> > radar. DADT was unofficially in place long before the law
> > was passed. Used to be, when a kid wanted out of his/her
> > enlistment contract they would go to their CO and say, "I
> > want to quit, so I'm gay--you need to put me out." They'd
> > get a "General Discharge under Honorable Conditions" and that
> > was it. NOW there has to be an investigation and the CO has
> > to determine if there was sexual activity and who the partner
> > was. Say you have two lesbians in a relationship and one
> > wants leave before her commitment is up. If she goes to the
> > CO, then that commander has to verify the act(s) and if they
> > were with another soldier. The other soldier, who wants to
> > stay in, has to testify under oath whether or not she had a
> > sexual relationship with the other soldier. Either way, both
> > of their military careers are shot and they may get
> > discharged under "Less That Honorable Conditions". You can't
> > use your veteran status for job seeking at that point. In
> > these cases the soldier who wants to leave will be strongly
> > advised to Chapter 15 out on "Drug and Alcohol" issues with a
> > General Discharge. DADT is a screwed-up law that never
> > needed to be there in the first place.
> >
> > I saw the debate live and was embarrassed by GEN Kerr's grandstanding.
> > It was very awkward and certainly did nothing to help the gay
> > community.
> > On top of that, if he WAS gay during his time in service and
> > committed a sexual act prohibited by the Uniform Code of
> > Military Justice (UCMJ), then he should have his retirement
> > package revoked. This has happened to numerous officers who
> > have committed adultery while in service (adultery is another
> > act prohibited by the UCMJ).
> >
> > Kyle
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cerebral Palsy List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > On Behalf Of ken barber
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 9:56 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: what would you do?
> >
> > you know i wonder why the question on that came up in the GOP
> > debate when "don't ask, don't tell" was/is a clinton policy.
> > the clinton news network picked the question and flew the guy
> > from florida and it was all coincidence? i was borned at
> > night, but not last nignt.=20
> >
> > --- "Kendall D. Corbett" <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > But if some of the CG enlistees were gay or lesbian, how
> > would that
> > >be viewed under "don't ask, don't tell," which is newly under fire?
> > >=20
> > > On 12/8/07, Tamar Raine <[log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > well, then some would be gay or lesbian, and one
> > > would be transexual! lol!
> > > >
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > http://www.zazzle.com/TamarMag*
> > > > Tamar Mag Raine
> > > > [log in to unmask]
> > > > www.cafepress.com/tamarmag
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > > From: Deri James <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2007 3:47:02 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: what would you do?
> > > >
> > > > On Saturday 08 December 2007 02:22:55 Tamar Raine
> > > wrote:
> > > > > I say let them party! lol! it's only a one hour
> > > flight!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, you're right - but I think the airline would
> > > have to set up a rota,
> > > > there were 17 females and 25 males!!
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >
> > > > Deri
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > http://www.zazzle.com/TamarMag*
> > > > > Tamar Mag Raine
> > > > > [log in to unmask]
> > > > > www.cafepress.com/tamarmag
> > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > > > From: ken barber <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > Sent: Friday, December 7, 2007 10:45:58 AM
> > > > > Subject: what would you do?
> > > > >
> > > > > Fasten Seat Belts
> > > > >
> > > > > Flying to Los Angeles from San Francisco the
> > > other
> > > > > day, a passenger noticed that the "Fasten Seat
> > > Belts"
> > > > > sign was kept lit during the whole journey
> > > although
> > > > > the flight was a particularly smooth one.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just before landing, he asked the stewardess
> > > about it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Well," she explained, "up front there are 17 University of
> > > > > California girls going to Los
> > > Angeles
> > > > > for the weekend.
> > > > >
> > > > > "In back, there are 25 Coast Guard enlistees.
> > > What
> > > > > would you do?"
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----------------------
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > --=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > Kendall
> > >=20
> > > An unreasonable man (but my wife says that's
> > > redundant!)
> > >=20
> > > The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the
> > unreasonable one
> > >persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
> > > Therefore, all progress
> > > depends on the unreasonable man.
> > >=20
> > > -George Bernard Shaw 1856-1950
> > >=20
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> > >=20
> > >=20
> >
> >
> >
> > =20
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > __________
> > ____________
> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.=20
> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> >
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>
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>
--
Kendall
An unreasonable man (but my wife says that's redundant!)
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.
-George Bernard Shaw 1856-1950
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To change your mail settings or leave the C-PALSY list, go here:
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