Hi Ken,
I didn't say that saying one is wrong is saying they are unpatriotic - I am saying the emotional response to being told that is the same - you have taken it away from actual facts to a personal judgement negative judgement at that. My point was that people have differences - that doesn't equate to being right or wrong. So you kinda miss the point. If being right is that important - then Ken you are right ( you can always be right - as far as I am concerned)I got where you are coming from - and I will happy to be different or WRONG - 100% of the time. In the end the peace is more important than the being right - as far as I am concerned. One Tin Soldier Walks Away - Have a Blessed Samhain - Honor the Ancestors - and Bobby, and have a Happy Halloween.
Trisha
-----Original Message-----
From: Cerebral Palsy List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf
Of ken barber
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 8:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: I have a question
well, we'll leave it that we have not questioned
anybody's patriotism and the rest can be however you
wish to say it. i do not agree with your opinion that
if you think i am wrong is the same thing as thinking
i am unpatriotic or in the same frame of mind.
patriotism is a motive, i can not see into anybody's
heart to see a motive. we can have different opinions
on how to accomplish something and have the same
motive, but you can think that my plan to accomplish
something will not work even if you know my motive is
right. in that kind of case your are not guestioning
my motive, but, you can think my plan is the wrong
plan. and in that case only time would tell.
--- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Ken,
>
> Having a different opinion does not make us wrong.
> Right and wrong are value judgements and place the
> "wrong" person in the same frame of mind as the
> "unpatriotic one". You are not right - we are not
> wrong - we have differing opinions - different is
> not wrong. The whole need to right is what gets us
> in this predictments in the first place - if you
> just accept others have different experiences and
> therefore different points from which to view things
> and therefore arrive at different conclusions why
> does make them wrong? And something can be morally
> repugnant to us and be okay in your book - from your
> frame of reference - you are totally within your
> rights to have your view - and we are within our
> rights to have ours. Within a conversational context
> we can discuss and share our views, you are not
> going to change your mind and we proabably not going
> to change ours. The other day I tried to share my
> experiences in the Christian Church School and you
> called it another anti Christian rant - yet I was
> telling you - I got where they are coming from, and
> understand their point of view - I still don't buy
> into it - but I also understand they can no more
> understand anything I might have to say - becuase of
> the point from which they view things, therefore I
> actaully learned something really valuable - don't
> even bother - respect where they are coming from and
> move on. It ends up not about being right or wrong
> but about respecting the other guy. My idea of
> Christian - ummmmm well, was not complete and held
> folks to really high standards and left out the
> "people" aspect. The people aspect is what is tough
> in life - I knew when I was 6 and my Mom ask how my
> day went and I said - I got math, I got spelling but
> this people to people stuff was really hard. Still
> is.
>
> Trisha
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cerebral Palsy List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf
> Of ken barber
> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 11:32 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: I have a question
>
>
> no you did not question it. if you thought i
> intended
> to say that i was misunderstood. actually i think
> the
> implication was that i had questioned it.
> i was earlier disagreeing with what i thought was
> you saying that the questioning was done to get him
> off message. i said that was a 180 on reality.
>
> i really do not think anybody on this list
> questions the others patriotism. i do not think
> there
> is one person on this list who is unpatriotic. i
> think
> many of you are wrong, but, that entirely different.
>
>
> i said and do believe that many times the question
> is
> brought up when one has exausted theirselves of
> anything else to say. just like the charges of
> racism,
> nigotry, and hate speech is a last effort to silence
> an opponent when one has run out of anything
> significant to use. i see it more off list than the
> rare occasions i think these ploys are used.
>
> --- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Ken,
> >
> > I didn't question Mike's patriotism, nor anyone
> > else's. his question was I thought - Quote Why is
> it
> > that one's patriotism is called into question when
> > one questions or disagrees with the status quo
> now?
> > I generic question - I simply clarified that if
> some
> > people - when they don't get their point across or
> > you can still question their ideas - go for the
> > personal jugular - these days that would be
> > patriotism. Its mean they not you - the accuser of
> > lack of patriotism has run out of logic and must
> now
> > resort to emotion and guilt.
> >
> >
>
> > Trisha
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: Cerebral Palsy List on behalf of ken barber
> > Sent: Mon 10/30/2006 7:49 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: I have a question
> >
> >
> >
> > i am saying that as far as i know, there was
> nothing
> > said about patritism in either direction until
> mike
> > brought up the question and you imediately joined
> in
> > with a standard support statement.
> >
> > at that point my thoughts were that the debate was
> > over because you guys had nothing left to say. i
> > have
> > grown to vew the patritism being questioned as a
> > ploy
> > when there is nothing else that you can think to
> > say.
> > that is a direct 180 to the first thing that trish
> > said about it being a red herring to get mike off
> > message. she had a lot more stuff in the email
> with
> > which one could agree or disagree but nothing that
> > supported the supposition that mikes patritism had
> > been challenged to get him off message. my view is
> > that it was brought and i am supposed to start
> > explaining that i did not challege anyones
> patritism
> > and chose not to do that because i do see it as a
> > ploy
> > just like i see the "bigot, racist, hate speech"
> > stuff
> > as a ploy that is used when there is nothing else
> of
> > any substance come forth.
> >
> > and in fact while there were a few post repeating
> > positions there was indeed nothing new sent after
> > mikes question of a challenge to his patriotism
> and
> > that just reinforces my view that it is a ploy.
> and
> > i
> > think it came out of nowhere.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > So are you saying we shouldn't take such things
> > > personally? Because I sure
> > > do.
> > >
> > > Kat
> > >
> > >
> > > Original Message:
> > > -----------------
> > > From: ken barber [log in to unmask]
> > > Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 08:46:10 -0800
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: I have a question
> > >
> > >
> > > the question is just a ploy. if you begin to
> loose
> > a
> > > discussion on the ideas in security, you say
> "you
> > > are
> > > questioning my patriotism." then the other
> person
> > is
> > > supposed to get off subject to convence you that
> > he
> > > is
> > > not questioning your patriotism instead of
> staying
> > > on
> > > the facts he is giving you. it is a ploy just
> like
> > > when you are losing on social and other
> political
> > > matters and you can't come up with facts to
> refute
> > > the
> > > other person, then you call him a bigot, a
> racist,
> > a
> > > homophobe or you say he is engaging in hate
> > speech.
>
=== message truncated ===
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