no you did not question it. if you thought i intended
to say that i was misunderstood. actually i think the
implication was that i had questioned it.
i was earlier disagreeing with what i thought was
you saying that the questioning was done to get him
off message. i said that was a 180 on reality.
i really do not think anybody on this list
questions the others patriotism. i do not think there
is one person on this list who is unpatriotic. i think
many of you are wrong, but, that entirely different.
i said and do believe that many times the question is
brought up when one has exausted theirselves of
anything else to say. just like the charges of racism,
nigotry, and hate speech is a last effort to silence
an opponent when one has run out of anything
significant to use. i see it more off list than the
rare occasions i think these ploys are used.
--- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hi Ken,
>
> I didn't question Mike's patriotism, nor anyone
> else's. his question was I thought - Quote Why is it
> that one's patriotism is called into question when
> one questions or disagrees with the status quo now?
> I generic question - I simply clarified that if some
> people - when they don't get their point across or
> you can still question their ideas - go for the
> personal jugular - these days that would be
> patriotism. Its mean they not you - the accuser of
> lack of patriotism has run out of logic and must now
> resort to emotion and guilt.
>
>
> Trisha
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Cerebral Palsy List on behalf of ken barber
> Sent: Mon 10/30/2006 7:49 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: I have a question
>
>
>
> i am saying that as far as i know, there was nothing
> said about patritism in either direction until mike
> brought up the question and you imediately joined in
> with a standard support statement.
>
> at that point my thoughts were that the debate was
> over because you guys had nothing left to say. i
> have
> grown to vew the patritism being questioned as a
> ploy
> when there is nothing else that you can think to
> say.
> that is a direct 180 to the first thing that trish
> said about it being a red herring to get mike off
> message. she had a lot more stuff in the email with
> which one could agree or disagree but nothing that
> supported the supposition that mikes patritism had
> been challenged to get him off message. my view is
> that it was brought and i am supposed to start
> explaining that i did not challege anyones patritism
> and chose not to do that because i do see it as a
> ploy
> just like i see the "bigot, racist, hate speech"
> stuff
> as a ploy that is used when there is nothing else of
> any substance come forth.
>
> and in fact while there were a few post repeating
> positions there was indeed nothing new sent after
> mikes question of a challenge to his patriotism and
> that just reinforces my view that it is a ploy. and
> i
> think it came out of nowhere.
>
>
>
> --- "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > So are you saying we shouldn't take such things
> > personally? Because I sure
> > do.
> >
> > Kat
> >
> >
> > Original Message:
> > -----------------
> > From: ken barber [log in to unmask]
> > Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 08:46:10 -0800
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: I have a question
> >
> >
> > the question is just a ploy. if you begin to loose
> a
> > discussion on the ideas in security, you say "you
> > are
> > questioning my patriotism." then the other person
> is
> > supposed to get off subject to convence you that
> he
> > is
> > not questioning your patriotism instead of staying
> > on
> > the facts he is giving you. it is a ploy just like
> > when you are losing on social and other political
> > matters and you can't come up with facts to refute
> > the
> > other person, then you call him a bigot, a racist,
> a
> > homophobe or you say he is engaging in hate
> speech.
> > he
> > is then supposed to back off because no one wants
> to
> > be seen as any of these things and so you silenece
> > him
> > by this ploy when you can't win on facts. both of
> > these are recognised as ploys now and not nearly
> so
> > many are backing off any more. instead for the
> most
> > part now ore are just ignoring thee ploys.
> >
> > --- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > HI Mike,
> > >
> > > Its good red herring - you then have to defend
> > why
> > > you are a good American, which gets away from
> the
> > > topic you are actually trying to get attention
> on.
> > > It like the prosecutor asking "So when was the
> > last
> > > time you beat your wife?" You are instantly
> > already
> > > in the wrong. rarely can one have a discussion
> > where
> > > differences are the topic and someone not employ
> > one
> > > or the 13 fallacies of logic - which draw the
> > > attention from the topic to the individual. It
> is
> > > actually being a good American to question the
> > > Status Quo, but its not being a good team player
> > nor
> > > does questioning authority ever go over well
> with
> > > authority especially insecure authority. While
> we
> > > have great a constitution and it tries hard to
> > > protect from ourselves, it is can only work as
> > long
> > > as everyone is a thinking being, and not just a
> > > blind follower. Jefferson mandated education
> > because
> > > he felt educated people made better decisions,
> > where
> > > more successful at business. The problem being
> > that
> > > thinking goes the way of the Dodo once
> emotionally
> > > charged persuasive rhetoric and events co-inside
> > to
> > > create a "common evil" even if the evil is more
> > our
> > > imagination than reality. We need to fear
> > ourselves
> > > much more than any terrorist. They killed
> roughly
> > > 3,000 and so far we have more than in war
> > fatalities
> > > and over 20,000 injuries. We have done a much
> > better
> > > number on ourselves than they could have ever
> > hoped
> > > to. Plus we have lost any standing in the world
> as
> > a
> > > leader - and any ground gained as a 1st world
> > nation
> > > - real problems are on the back burner or under
> > the
> > > rug - and we are rapidly spiraling into becoming
> a
> > > 3rd world country. Yet here we are carefully
> > divided
> > > in groups so we have no power, Christians vs.
> > Every
> > > other Religion, Democratic vs. Republicans, Rich
> > vs.
> > > poor, able-bodied vs. disabled, white vs.
> > everything
> > > other ethnicity - United we Stand - Divided we
> > fall.
> > > We have fallen and only a miracle can reverse
> the
> > > damage now. The enemy is never without - the
> enemy
> > > is within. We have always been loosely united by
> > > causes - usually external - but now we have no
> > great
> > > external cause to create unity. The War on make
> > > believe Terrorism isn't it. I believe those
> folks
> > > hate us - with cause and would love to do us
> > damages
> > > - if they could. But how? By preying on our
> > > weaknesses. Its not hard now - everyone here
> hates
> > > everyone else and feels used and cheated they
> > don't
>
=== message truncated ===
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