Hi Kyle,
Oral history is what they had - 6,000 years ago. The Jews have been around I believe they are in year 5764. At some point they existed before writing. Have Mag date the Torah and other Jewish books for you - but I am fairly sure there was a time when they were oral, and then became recorded. Kyle, I am okay talking about this - hopefully people aren't offended by differing points from which to view things.
I believe the early followers I was talking about where already exterminated by 200 CE
By the way - how are doing these days?
Trisha
> It's difficult for me to discuss Christianity and Catholicism together
> without getting angry. In "Christendom" reason and logic took a left turn
> when someone declared Peter the first pope by decontextualizing one phrase
> and building an entire dogma around it (Matthew 16:18).
>
> I agree entirely with your argument, except for the definition of "early
> followes of Christ". My definition would exclude anyone after about 200 AD
> at the latest.
>
> As far as it being an "oral history", I have to call you on that one. There
> are plenty of "contemporary" secular writings among non-Hebrew,
> non-Christian writers describing the same events. I would be willing to
> share this information with you and anyone else on the list who's
> interested, but I imagine there are a goodly number of listmates who could
> not care less, so maybe we should take this discussion offline. Anyone who
> would like to participate in this thread should send me an "offline" email
> and I'll be glad to talk about it. Is it is, though, we've probably worn
> out our welcome here on this topic.
>
> With respect to war, yes, it is a horrible thing, but it is no more moral or
> immoral than stealing candy from your mom's purse. Right and wrong is just
> that--a binary construct. Humankind has put his own mask of moral
> relativism on actions in the name of justification. It is a hard thing to
> accept, I'll grant you, but in the short few thousand years of recorded
> history there has not been time to evolve ethical standards for whole
> societies based on mankind's own conscience, wouldn't you agree? You make
> make argument for me when you say yourself that we are forever doomed to war
> and self-exterpation. If morality was a human construct, how would we
> know--in our very being--that stealing, lying and killing are "wrong"? On
> the contrary, we could make the argument that these things would be "right"
> for the individual gains they produce.
>
> One final thing: Before you reject Christianity out of hand, examine its
> history and nature during the first generation of its existance. Don't
> condemn it for what mortal men turned it into within the lifetimes of the
> grtandchildren of the first believers.
>
> Kyle
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Trisha Cummings
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: 10/2/03 12:46 PM
> Subject: Re: religion and politics (long-ish); was RE: Brother in Law
>
> Kyle,
>
> The Puritan escaped England for that reason then tried to do
> the same thing here. Lets face it - the early followers of Christ -
> wiped each others sects out also. What should be learned is that people
> are the problem - not the belief systems - but everyone jumps on the
> band to conclusions, and defends their point very frequently without
> ever looking at the point - going only on I have to be right.
> Christianity succeeds very well in the middle ages because it promises a
> better here after from a pretty dismal here now. What would have
> happened - heck would happen today - if it had been focused on the life
> here and now. It would have taken the power away from the oppressors -
> life is to some degree about power. What would happen if - all the money
> the Catholic Church had - had gone into giving people better lives>
> instead of glorifying the head honcho's????? Until we see - it is one
> world and one people - we will forever be trapped in the war cycle. War
> makes no sense - its a power thing - my weenie is bigger than your
> weenie and I win the pissing contest. The point behind life is to
> continue life - war is counter productive - one could actually creat the
> scenario where we make people an extinct species. It will be over - All
> the religions are an attempt to explain where we came from, what kind of
> morals we should have , and where we go next. We take what the faiths
> put out on faith. Becasue no one knows where we come from, or where we
> are going, altho ocassionaly some folks have a glimmer of how we should
> live. And it doesn't matter where we came from - we are here. It matters
> how we live and to boil it down - we are here to propogate, and care for
> each other, and where we go next - is a leap in faith and anyones
> conjecture. I think to some the not knowing is terrifing, so they attach
> themselves to a belief system, and then they "know". Personally, the
> Bible to me is a book - that was started orally about 6,000 years ago,
> has good parables and stories and catologs the history of the Jews, and
> has been updated to reflect some officials joint decisions of what
> should be in it. And if they didn't like something - it was changed or
> tossed. I have never understand in the face of that knowledge how can
> you use the Bible to justify anything. As people evolve - the belief
> system needs to evolve also. That today is where the rub is - the
> Fundementals versus those who understand the need for growth. People
> focus on the smallest of issues becasue they are managable - and you can
> folks whipped up about them.
>
> Having said all that - if we didn't fight about religion, and
> the dirt we stand on, and the fact someone might be plotting to harm us,
> no doubt we would find 6 other things.
>
>
> Trisha
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cleveland, Kyle E. [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 6:30 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: religion and politics (long-ish); was RE: Brother
> in Law
> >
> > Yes, the Romans were pantheists, but their government was not
> theocratic. I
> > thought, too, that I did include the witch trials and the
> Inquisition--by
> > implication, if not outright explicit example. Christianity in it's
> > original form--observed at a local level by autonomous chirches--only
> lasted
> > less than a hundred years after the final Pauline letter (about 160
> A.D.).
> > Centralization of the church, for which there was no "scriptural"
> precedent,
> > began about this time and culminated in the "Romanization" of the
> church by
> > Constantine. I think Ken may agree with me, but I consider the
> "church" to
> > be apostate from about 160 A.D. up until the various Restoration
> movements
> > of the late 18th/early 19th century.
> >
> > Folks who advocate teaching Judeo-Christian beliefs in public school
> would>
> > do well to remember why the "Puritans" fled England in the first
> place--to
> > escape nationalized religion. I'm probably as strong a proponent of
> > religion/state separation as anyone.
> >
> > It pains me to think that folks equate biblical Christianity with 1900
> years
> > of Roman/Macedonian influence.
> >
> > Kyle
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Trisha Cummings
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: 10/1/03 2:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: religion and politics (long-ish); was RE: Brother in Law
> >
> > Hi Ken,
> >
> > That was more a comment against the godless Romans - one doesn't
> have
> > to be Godless to be barbaric.
> >
> > Trisha
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ken barber [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 2:46 PM>
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: religion and politics (long-ish); was RE: Brother
> > in Law
> > >
> > > there has been many atrosities committed in the name
> > > of G-d that he had nothing to do with it.
> > >
> > > --- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > Oh Kyle,
> > > >
> > > > I love it, when you get into the fray. The only
> > > > correction I would =
> > > > add - The Romans were not godless, they had a
> > > > pantheon of Gods - they =
> > > > where no different than any of the other ancient
> > > > civilizations - we =
> > > > can't judge those civilizations with our morals - it
> > > > took building on =
> > > > those societies to get where we are today. And if do
> > > > - then we need to =
> > > > remember - the Burning tImes and the Spanish
> > > > Inquistion - no one gets =
> > > > away scot free - despite everything we know - we
> > > > still don't really act =
> > > > like civilized people. We just have a slightly
> > > > higher level of barberism =
> > > > today.
> > > >
> > > > Trisha
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Trisha Cummings, Data Analyst =20
> > > > Synectics For Management Decisions, Inc
> > > > 1901 North Moore Street, Suite 900
> > > > Arlington, Virginia 22209
> > > > Ph# 703-807-2345
> > > > Fax 703-528-6421
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > What gets me is that many conservative Christians
> > > > (which describes ME =
> > > > in
> > > > > only in basic theology) feel that the US should
> > > > be/was a theocracy. =
> > > > If they
> > > > > would only read the teachings of the individual
> > > > they purport to
> > > > > follow--Jesus--they would understand that the
> > > > biblical theocracy only =
> > > > went
> > > > > as far as Israel (ex. Mt 22:15-22, the entire
> > > > chapter of Acts 28).
> > > > >=20
> > > > > In the New Testament, the church is not expected
> > > > to function as a =
> > > > nation
> > > > > state. On the contrary, the program is clearly
> > > > different as witnessed =
> > > > by the
> > > > > call to submit to, and obey the Roman
> > > > government--one of the most =
> > > > godless
> > > > > and brutal governments in history. (Rom. 13:1) The
> > > > New Testament is =
> > > > devoid
> > > > > of any call to take over society or to run society
> > > > God's way. =
> > > > Unfortunately,
> > > > > many Bible interpreters continue to read the
> > > > Covenantal promises and
> > > > > warnings addressed to Israel in the Old Testament
> > > > as though they apply
> > > > > either to the church, or to the United States (or
> > > > other countries).
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > A very common example of this confusion is the
> > > > often quoted passage in =
> > > > 2
> > > > > Chronicles 7:13 "If I shut up the heavens so that
> > > > there is no rain, or =
> > > > if I
> > > > > command the locust to devour the land, or if I
> > > > send pestilence among =
> > > > My
> > > > > people, and My people who are called by My name
> > > > humble themselves and =
> > > > pray,
> > > > > and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways,
> > > > then I will hear =
> > > > from
> > > > > heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal
> > > > their land." It is a =
> > > > mistake
> > > > > to apply this passage to the United States? It
> > > > refers to the
> > > > > cursing/blessing section in the book of>
> > > > Deuteronomy. The people who =
> > > > are
> > > > > called by God's name are Israel. There is in fact
> > > > no such promise =
> > > > extended
> > > > > to other countries.
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > One qualification is needed on this point. In the
> > > > ancient world, there =
> > > > was
> > > > > no opportunity to vote on government issues or
> > > > candidates. We do not =
> > > > know
> > > > > what God would have said if there was. Probably, a
> > > > good ethical case =
> > > > can be
> > > > > made for Christian activism in politics as long as>
> > > > it falls short of
> > > > > attempts to establish a Christian state.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > History is full of examples of catastrophic
> > > > results when the church =
> > > > has
> > > > > concluded that it is to run the state. A nation>
> > > > state often has to =
> > > > operate
> > > > > in the area of compulsion, punishment and even
> > > > war. All of these =
> > > > things are
> > > > > inappropriate for the church. The church needs to
> > > > keep crystal clear
> > > > > loyalties, excluding any non-biblical insertion
> > > > into Christian =
> > > > doctrine.
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Manipulators use values similar or even identical
> > > > to those in the =
> > > > Bible to
> > > > > get Christians to back their agendas. For
> > > > instance, no two themes are =
> > > > more
> > > > > universal in world religions than the sanctity of
> > > > the family and the
> > > > > sacredness of the given cultural-national
> > > > heritage. Oriental religion =
> > > > often
> > > > > actually worships parents and ancestors. Islam
> > > > views the state as =
> > > > expressly
> > > > > a religious entity. Most oral religions are one
> > > > and the same as the
> > > > > government of the tribe. This has tended to be
> > > > true of Christianity as =
> > > > well
> > > > > in Europe. The medieval church was convinced that
> > > > the state was to =
> > > > operate
> > > > > under the spiritual authority of the church.
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Linking the universal appeal of blood and soil
> > > > values with patriotic =
> > > > values>=20
> > > > > and religion leads to the formation of a civil
> > > > religion which is =
> > > > sometimes
> > > > > only nominally Christian. For instance, the
> > > > implication of a prominent
> > > > > evangelical leading whole football stadiums in
> > > > prayer before games is =
> > > > clear-
> > > > > -all or most of those present must be Christians.
> > > > It is easy to see =
> > > > why
> > > > > people begin to believe that Christianity is
> > > > synonymous with American
> > > > > citizenship or church membership.
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > This nominal Christianity is one of the most
> > > > deadly threats to real
> > > > > Christianity for two reasons. In the first place,
> > > > it causes people to
> > > > > believe that they are Christians when they are
> > > > not, and secondly, it
> > > > > misrepresents Christianity to the secular world.
> > > > Instead of seeing =
> > > > real
> > > > > vibrant spiritual living on the part of the
> > > > church, society sees a
> > > > > Christianity that is plagued by confusion and
> > > > mediocrity.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Stepping, sweating, off the soapbox pulpit.
> > > > Anybody got any snakes I =
> > > > can
> > > > > handle? I hear that snake venom is good for
> > > > spasms...wait a minute, =
> > > > never
> > > > > mind, that's honeybees, not snakes.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Kyle
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: ken barber [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:34 AM
> > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > Subject: Re: Brother in Law
> > > >
> > > === message truncated ===
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
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