i think what betty is getting at, is that euthanasia will be administered to
those of us who are disabled just as one who would make the desision for a
old dog. the dog does not make the desision. betty doesn't think we who are
disabled would get to make the desision.

-----Original Message-----
From: - Joy - [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 7:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From another list... Life Worth Living.


I agree with you, Betty.  My goal is to become a disability rights attorney,
working on representing ADA litigants and strengthening the legislation.
But, I think you misunderstand my point...

I just don't understand why euthanasia is a disability rights issue.  To me,
a disability rights issue is something that affects all disabled people
uniformly - barriers, discrimination, etc.  The right to life/death is not
something that people with disabilities can all agree on and present a
united front on.  Therefore, it's less of a disability rights issue than a
human rights issue.

Since it's not something that is wanted by all disabled people, I don't see
how it relates to the disabled community any more than it does to the human
community at large.  The disabled community has the same disagreements
(whether they're about abortion, race, politics, or euthanasia) as the
global community does.  We are a cross-section of humanity.  It doesn't seem
right to take your viewpoint and say that taking a stand on it is taking a
statement on disability rights.

I'm having a hard time expressing what I want to say... hopefully this makes
some sense.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
~Joy~
http://www.geocities.com/joy0823
Currently Reading: "1st to Die" by James Patterson
Last Movie Seen:  "Charlie's Angels" - 4 out of 5 stars
------------------------------------------------------------------------


----- Original Message -----
From: "Betty B" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: From another list... Life Worth Living.


> Joy, Kathy, I do agree with you.  You have the right to
self-determination.
>
> I should clarify my statements, and further mention that this is my
personal
> belief.  However, I base that belief on my knowledge of civil rights
> activities in the days since the United States were founded.
>
> No one should be coerced to promote one philosophy or another because they

> happen to belong to a particular sub-community of the human community.
> That's not what I am saying.
>
> When African Americans were segregated from European Americans, change was
> necessary.  This is too short a commentary about a part of our history
that
> deserves more attention, more specifically, accurate attention.
>
> At any rate, we all know (I'm assuming) that Rosa Parks -- an African
> American US citizen -- refused to relinquish her bus seat to a European
> American.  That was part of the beginning of a revolution that brought
about
> changes in public transportation segregation, and was an important event
that
> helped to bring this nation to greater awareness, and eventually to the
Civil
> Rights Act of 1964.  Years later I heard her in an interview.  She said
that
> the only reason she did that was because her feet were hurting.  What a
bold
> action though!  In that day her decision was not only unpopular and
unlawful,
> it was dangerous.
>
> Civil rights marches were well publicized.  They were attended by such
great
> numbers of people, that we could not help but notice them.  Forgetting the
> violence that occurred -- not that violence is forgettable -- change was
> brought about by the revolution of African Americans, not by the sudden
moral
> awakening of a European American dominated America.
>
> We are no longer lynching African Americans.  At least not literally.
>
> I honor the memory of Martin Luther King, Jr.  He advocated peaceful
> resistance, rather than violence.  Unfortunately, he wasn't in the company
of
> some other leaders in the African American community, and there was
violence.
>  But he didn't promote it.  And when the marches came, there he was in
front,
> arm in arm with other African Americans.  Bottles were thrown at the
marchers
> from the sidelines.  Many were beaten by the police even though they were
> peacefully marching.
>
> They marched with unity and dignity, and they changed this nation.
>
> Had I not fell upon those who feel that disability is okay, I might have
gone
> through the rest of my life thinking that I have the problem, when the
> problem is a society that builds curb ramps leading to impassable brick
> walls.  I might have been grateful for those ramps, as though this
> nondisabled nation has granted me something.  Thanks to my associations
and
> mentors in the disability community however, I know that I was not built
> wrong, but society was built wrong.
>
> Hogwash!  Horsefeathers!  I will not have this for Zach, and the other
> children with disabilities who have no true advocacy, save from those who
are
> willing to be hit with bottles and take beatings now, so they will not
have
> to take that garbage as adults.  Will you have that for them?
>
> I don't know many nondisabled people who are willing to take a bullet for
us.
>  Unfortunately, I don't know too many disabled people who are willing to
take
> it either.  We have had the marches, but not in great number.  I
personally
> will not march because of the inherent hazards if something gets out of
hand,
> but I will write to legislators, and I speak openly about who we are: Full
> citizens.  I marched with off duty FBI agents because I knew for a fact
that
> it was going to be a peaceful march.  I don't promote violence either.
>
> Legally we are full citizens, you know.  We have it all down on paper.
> Actually, we are already granted liberty in the United States
Constitution,
> but what good is a piece of paper when the majority of people see us as
less?
>
> As I said in a previous post, if you have a severe disability, nondisabled
> America assumes that you want to die anyway.  The way things stand now, I
> don't think you are going to have a problem getting your right-to-die
request
> granted one day.  Although, If you do want to live and need an organ
> transplant -- and are severely disabled -- I have reservations about
whether
> you will even end up on the waiting list.  It may happen though.  I may be
> wrong.
>
> I'm going to start pulling this together so I can close.
>
> You have assumed that I think you have some obligation to further the
> advancement of disability rights justice just because you are disabled.
No,
> that is not my position.  My position is that you are obligated by virtue
of
> your knowledge of the oppression we suffer.  It just so happens that you
came
> by your knowledge through first hand experience.  That may give you a
better
> edge in terms of what the oppression feels like, but the nondisabled
person
> who knows these things is no less obligated.
>
> Dr. King said that no man is free unless all men are free.  That statement
is
> actually more applicable to the disability rights movement than it is even
to
> the civil rights movement, because -- as you know -- everyone who is not
> disabled now may become so one day (take it from one who knows).  The man
who
> oppresses us today may be one of us tomorrow.
>
> One reason that I am this passionate is due to my own experiences as a
> nondisabled person.  I remember what it was like, and I think it stinks
and
> is unacceptable that it's not like that now.  I don't like oppression, and
I
> have no intention of getting used to it.  I will be enraged for the rest
of
> my life.
>
> Harriet Tubman was enraged and saved a lot of lives.  She is my personal
> hero.  She was an African American, and a member of the disability
community
> as well.  We don't have a Harriet Tubman day, but we darned well should.
We
> should honor the memories of true heroes -- those who are willing to risk
> their lives for others -- in a much larger way than we do.
>
> What's the bottom line?  I am not saying whether you should want to die or
> not want to die.  I am saying that when a community of people lives under
the
> thumb of oppression, I believe that you ARE obligated to participate in
the
> securing of its freedom.
>
> Respectfully and truthfully submitted,
> Betty
>
> In a message dated 04/21/2001 2:35:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
> > I agree.
>
> >  -----Original Message-----
> >  From:   - Joy - [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> >  Sent:   Friday, April 20, 2001 12:35 PM
> >  To:     [log in to unmask]
> >  Subject:        Re: From another list...  Life Worth Living.
> >
> >  Sorry this post is so outdated, I'm just getting caught up on mail.
First,
> >  let me say that I'm hoping not to offend anyone with what I'm about to
say.
> >  I have a problem with the idea that all people with disabilities are
(or
> >  should be) anti-euthanasia.  Why should we all feel a certain way, just
> >  because we were dropped into a common category of disability by fate?
> >  Whether I was disabled or not, I would still want to live a life that
was
> >  full of dignity and relatively free of pain.  When it becomes
impossible
> for
> >  me to do that, I do not wish to live anymore.  To me, everyone should
have
> >  choices.  No one should be forced to live a life they do not want, just
as
> >  no one should be forced to die.
> >