Kyle,
The Puritan escaped England for that reason then tried to do the same thing here. Lets face it - the early followers of Christ - wiped each others sects out also. What should be learned is that people are the problem - not the belief systems - but everyone jumps on the band to conclusions, and defends their point very frequently without ever looking at the point - going only on I have to be right. Christianity succeeds very well in the middle ages because it promises a better here after from a pretty dismal here now. What would have happened - heck would happen today - if it had been focused on the life here and now. It would have taken the power away from the oppressors - life is to some degree about power. What would happen if - all the money the Catholic Church had - had gone into giving people better lives instead of glorifying the head honcho's????? Until we see - it is one world and one people - we will forever be trapped in the war cycle. War makes no sense - its a power thing - my weenie is bigger than your weenie and I win the pissing contest. The point behind life is to continue life - war is counter productive - one could actually creat the scenario where we make people an extinct species. It will be over - All the religions are an attempt to explain where we came from, what kind of morals we should have , and where we go next. We take what the faiths put out on faith. Becasue no one knows where we come from, or where we are going, altho ocassionaly some folks have a glimmer of how we should live. And it doesn't matter where we came from - we are here. It matters how we live and to boil it down - we are here to propogate, and care for each other, and where we go next - is a leap in faith and anyones conjecture. I think to some the not knowing is terrifing, so they attach themselves to a belief system, and then they "know". Personally, the Bible to me is a book - that was started orally about 6,000 years ago, has good parables and stories and catologs the history of the Jews, and has been updated to reflect some officials joint decisions of what should be in it. And if they didn't like something - it was changed or tossed. I have never understand in the face of that knowledge how can you use the Bible to justify anything. As people evolve - the belief system needs to evolve also. That today is where the rub is - the Fundementals versus those who understand the need for growth. People focus on the smallest of issues becasue they are managable - and you can folks whipped up about them.
Having said all that - if we didn't fight about religion, and the dirt we stand on, and the fact someone might be plotting to harm us, no doubt we would find 6 other things.
Trisha
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cleveland, Kyle E. [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 6:30 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: religion and politics (long-ish); was RE: Brother in Law
>
> Yes, the Romans were pantheists, but their government was not theocratic. I
> thought, too, that I did include the witch trials and the Inquisition--by
> implication, if not outright explicit example. Christianity in it's
> original form--observed at a local level by autonomous chirches--only lasted
> less than a hundred years after the final Pauline letter (about 160 A.D.).
> Centralization of the church, for which there was no "scriptural" precedent,
> began about this time and culminated in the "Romanization" of the church by
> Constantine. I think Ken may agree with me, but I consider the "church" to
> be apostate from about 160 A.D. up until the various Restoration movements
> of the late 18th/early 19th century.
>
> Folks who advocate teaching Judeo-Christian beliefs in public school would>
> do well to remember why the "Puritans" fled England in the first place--to
> escape nationalized religion. I'm probably as strong a proponent of
> religion/state separation as anyone.
>
> It pains me to think that folks equate biblical Christianity with 1900 years
> of Roman/Macedonian influence.
>
> Kyle
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Trisha Cummings
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: 10/1/03 2:47 PM
> Subject: Re: religion and politics (long-ish); was RE: Brother in Law
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> That was more a comment against the godless Romans - one doesn't have
> to be Godless to be barbaric.
>
> Trisha
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ken barber [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 2:46 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: religion and politics (long-ish); was RE: Brother
> in Law
> >
> > there has been many atrosities committed in the name
> > of G-d that he had nothing to do with it.
> >
> > --- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > Oh Kyle,
> > >
> > > I love it, when you get into the fray. The only
> > > correction I would =
> > > add - The Romans were not godless, they had a
> > > pantheon of Gods - they =
> > > where no different than any of the other ancient
> > > civilizations - we =
> > > can't judge those civilizations with our morals - it
> > > took building on =
> > > those societies to get where we are today. And if do
> > > - then we need to =
> > > remember - the Burning tImes and the Spanish
> > > Inquistion - no one gets =
> > > away scot free - despite everything we know - we
> > > still don't really act =
> > > like civilized people. We just have a slightly
> > > higher level of barberism =
> > > today.
> > >
> > > Trisha
> > >
> > >
> > > Trisha Cummings, Data Analyst =20
> > > Synectics For Management Decisions, Inc
> > > 1901 North Moore Street, Suite 900
> > > Arlington, Virginia 22209
> > > Ph# 703-807-2345
> > > Fax 703-528-6421
> > >
> > >
> > > > What gets me is that many conservative Christians
> > > (which describes ME =
> > > in
> > > > only in basic theology) feel that the US should
> > > be/was a theocracy. =
> > > If they
> > > > would only read the teachings of the individual
> > > they purport to
> > > > follow--Jesus--they would understand that the
> > > biblical theocracy only =
> > > went
> > > > as far as Israel (ex. Mt 22:15-22, the entire
> > > chapter of Acts 28).
> > > >=20
> > > > In the New Testament, the church is not expected
> > > to function as a =
> > > nation
> > > > state. On the contrary, the program is clearly
> > > different as witnessed =
> > > by the
> > > > call to submit to, and obey the Roman
> > > government--one of the most =
> > > godless
> > > > and brutal governments in history. (Rom. 13:1) The
> > > New Testament is =
> > > devoid
> > > > of any call to take over society or to run society
> > > God's way. =
> > > Unfortunately,
> > > > many Bible interpreters continue to read the
> > > Covenantal promises and
> > > > warnings addressed to Israel in the Old Testament
> > > as though they apply
> > > > either to the church, or to the United States (or
> > > other countries).
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > A very common example of this confusion is the
> > > often quoted passage in =
> > > 2
> > > > Chronicles 7:13 "If I shut up the heavens so that
> > > there is no rain, or =
> > > if I
> > > > command the locust to devour the land, or if I
> > > send pestilence among =
> > > My
> > > > people, and My people who are called by My name
> > > humble themselves and =
> > > pray,
> > > > and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways,
> > > then I will hear =
> > > from
> > > > heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal
> > > their land." It is a =
> > > mistake
> > > > to apply this passage to the United States? It
> > > refers to the
> > > > cursing/blessing section in the book of>
> > > Deuteronomy. The people who =
> > > are
> > > > called by God's name are Israel. There is in fact
> > > no such promise =
> > > extended
> > > > to other countries.
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > One qualification is needed on this point. In the
> > > ancient world, there =
> > > was
> > > > no opportunity to vote on government issues or
> > > candidates. We do not =
> > > know
> > > > what God would have said if there was. Probably, a
> > > good ethical case =
> > > can be
> > > > made for Christian activism in politics as long as
> > > it falls short of
> > > > attempts to establish a Christian state.
> > > >=20
> > > > History is full of examples of catastrophic
> > > results when the church =
> > > has
> > > > concluded that it is to run the state. A nation>
> > > state often has to =
> > > operate
> > > > in the area of compulsion, punishment and even
> > > war. All of these =
> > > things are
> > > > inappropriate for the church. The church needs to
> > > keep crystal clear
> > > > loyalties, excluding any non-biblical insertion
> > > into Christian =
> > > doctrine.
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > Manipulators use values similar or even identical
> > > to those in the =
> > > Bible to
> > > > get Christians to back their agendas. For
> > > instance, no two themes are =
> > > more
> > > > universal in world religions than the sanctity of
> > > the family and the
> > > > sacredness of the given cultural-national
> > > heritage. Oriental religion =
> > > often
> > > > actually worships parents and ancestors. Islam
> > > views the state as =
> > > expressly
> > > > a religious entity. Most oral religions are one
> > > and the same as the
> > > > government of the tribe. This has tended to be
> > > true of Christianity as =
> > > well
> > > > in Europe. The medieval church was convinced that
> > > the state was to =
> > > operate
> > > > under the spiritual authority of the church.
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > Linking the universal appeal of blood and soil
> > > values with patriotic =
> > > values>=20
> > > > and religion leads to the formation of a civil
> > > religion which is =
> > > sometimes
> > > > only nominally Christian. For instance, the
> > > implication of a prominent
> > > > evangelical leading whole football stadiums in
> > > prayer before games is =
> > > clear-
> > > > -all or most of those present must be Christians.
> > > It is easy to see =
> > > why
> > > > people begin to believe that Christianity is
> > > synonymous with American
> > > > citizenship or church membership.
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > This nominal Christianity is one of the most
> > > deadly threats to real
> > > > Christianity for two reasons. In the first place,
> > > it causes people to
> > > > believe that they are Christians when they are
> > > not, and secondly, it
> > > > misrepresents Christianity to the secular world.
> > > Instead of seeing =
> > > real
> > > > vibrant spiritual living on the part of the
> > > church, society sees a
> > > > Christianity that is plagued by confusion and
> > > mediocrity.
> > > >=20
> > > > Stepping, sweating, off the soapbox pulpit.
> > > Anybody got any snakes I =
> > > can
> > > > handle? I hear that snake venom is good for
> > > spasms...wait a minute, =
> > > never
> > > > mind, that's honeybees, not snakes.
> > > >=20
> > > > Kyle
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: ken barber [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:34 AM
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Subject: Re: Brother in Law
> > >
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
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