Ken,

On NPR this morning, I heard interviews with a State Dept official and a DoD
official (unfortunately, I can't remember their names, or exact positions,
although the State Department official did have ambassadorial rank) who both
said that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were not going to be won
militarily, but through economic development.  Their theory is that there
are too many young men in Islamic countries that see the economic conditions
as oppressive, and are joining Jihadist organizations to try to change those
conditions.  I also did a quick search for sources for the 847 billion price
tag for the Obama-Hagel-Cantwell bill and the sources I found were primarily
blogs.  It's also ineresting to note that Chuck Hagel from Nebraska is a
Republican.

The only source that I recognized as a credible news source was the National
Ledger:

http://www.nationalledger.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=22&num=18845

Didn't see anything from the Washington Post, LA Times, NY Times, or
actually even Fox that reported this figure.  We might all debate the
credibility of those news organizations, even if I had found citations from
them.

You also mentioned that you can't imagine a president proposing legislation
that he didn't intend to fund:

"WOULD YOU PLAN FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU DO NOT INTEND TO EXECTE."

If that's the case, what about George HW Bush and the ADA?  I seem to
remember it being referred to as an "unfunded mandate."

As far as there not being enough money in the budget for Obama's program,
it's also interesting to note that the $847 billion figure is, according to
one source, about equal to the lost revenue from the Bush tax cuts:

 The Return Of Voodoo Economics Republicans Ignore Their Experts on The Cost
of Tax Cuts

By Sebastian Mallaby<http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/email/sebastian+mallaby/>
Monday, May 15, 2006; Page A17

....Okay, so let's review this issue with the help of some experts. I'd like
to cite Richard Kogan of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, because
his work <http://www.cbpp.org/3-8-06tax.htm> inspired this column. But to
win over reasonable conservatives, I'm going to choose N. Gregory Mankiw of
Harvard, a proponent of tax cuts who chaired the Council of Economic
Advisers in the Bush White House. Mankiw is a top-notch economist hired by
Bush and Cheney to advise them. And last year he published a
paper<http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/mankiw/papers/dynamicscoring_05-1212.pdf>on
how far tax cuts pay for themselves, reporting enthusiastically that
this
self-financing effect is "surprisingly large."

How large, exactly? Mankiw reckons that over the long run (the long run
being generous to his argument), cuts on capital taxes generate enough extra
growth to pay for half of the lost revenue. *Hello, Mr. President, that
means that the other half of the lost revenue translates into bigger
deficits.* Mankiw also calculates that the comparable figure for cuts in
taxes on wages is 17 percent. *Yes, Mr. President, that means every $1
trillion in tax cuts is going to add $830 billion to the national debt.....*

*
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/14/AR2006051400806.html
*

Also, the sources I found, even the conservative ones, put a total price tag
of $850 billion on all the programs Obama has proposed, and that's if
they're adopted exactly in the way he has proposed them in the campaign.

And if tax cuts stimulate the economy, why are we heading into a recession?
(OK, that's oversimplified, as there are a host of factors contributing to
the economic slowdown: sub-prime mortgages, gas prices, increasing food
prices [driven, in part, by the increased use of agricultural production
used to produce ethanol for fuel], etc...)

As far as Bush Junior not understanding poverty, it sounds like there are at
least two people in his aministration (in the DoD and the State Department)
that have somewhat of a handle on it.
Amazing what a good nights sleep and listening to NPR in the morning can do
for me ;-{)}

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 9:01 PM, ken barber <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> i did not hear about the bill on fox at all, i read about it in two
> different places. the actual study would not be the major cost, where the
> cost would come in would be if obama when elected decided to implement the
> plan.
>
>
> --- On Wed, 4/30/08, Kendall D. Corbett <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > From: Kendall D. Corbett <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: S.2433 global tax on americans to give to other countries
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Date: Wednesday, April 30, 2008, 7:15 PM
>  > Mag,
> >
> > I sincerely doubt Dubya wrote the speech either, but the
> > fact that he said
> > it lends credence to him mouthing the words, if not fully
> > understanding
> > their impact.  By placing the quote in the supporting
> > documentation for a
> > bill, it would be too easy to prove or disprove whether he
> > actually said
> > them.  Since Ken didn't tell us that the costs of the
> > proposed legislation
> > were not reported on Fox, it leads me to believe that they
> > were, or on an
> > equally conservative source.  The point of the quote
> > attributing terrorism
> > in part, to poverty, doesn't sound particularly
> > "Bush-like." Dubya, IMHO,
> > doesn't understand many of the things that we have the
> > right to expect the
> > President to understand, but that didn't prevent him
> > from being re-elected.
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Tamar Raine
> > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > I doubt very much that bush 2 wrote that speech. I
> > really doubt he truly
> > > unerstands poverty and the related issues.  I recently
> > read an excerpt from
> > > a book by Lee Iacoca, that really says all the things
> > I have thought about
> > > bush2.  for instance, bush never reads a newspaper, he
> > gets his news from
> > > fox news while he is in the gym! I don't read the
> > paper, but then I am not
> > > the leader of the country and I don't have to make
> > decisions affecting the
> > > millions of americans or other countries.
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > http://www.zazzle.com/TamarMag*
> > > Tamar Mag Raine
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > > www.cafepress.com/tamarmag
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: Kendall D. Corbett
> > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > >  Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:25:56 PM
> > > Subject: Re: S.2433 global tax on americans to give to
> > other countries
> > >
> > > Here's a link to the bill as introduced in the
> > Senate, which lists
> > > cosponsors and legislative history:
> > >
> > >
> > http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c110:2:./temp/~c110NXPmS0
> > >
> > > Under findings, the bill some rather startling facts
> > about worldwide
> > > poverty, and how that poverty may lead to increased
> > acts of terrorism.
> > > Finding 5 is a statement by President Bush:
> > >
> > >
> > >   (5) On March 22, 2002, President George W. Bush
> > stated: `We fight
> > >   against poverty because hope is an answer to terror.
> > We fight against
> > >   poverty because opportunity is a fundamental right
> > to human dignity. We
> > >   fight against poverty because faith requires it and
> > conscience demands
> > > it.
> > >   We fight against poverty with a growing conviction
> > that major progress
> > > is
> > >   within our reach.'.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   As I read the bill, as Peter said, a dedicated tax
> > is not proposed.  I
> > >   haven't taken the time to go into the GAO report
> > on the bill, but I'd
> > > bet
> > >   that the folks at Fox are getting budget projections
> > from somewhere,
> > > seeing
> > >   that therre isn't enough money in the budget to
> > cover those projected
> > > costs,
> > >   and assuming that a tax of the magnitude you mention
> > would be necessary
> > > to
> > >   fund the program.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   As I read the bill, it's intended to support UN
> > action to alleviate
> > >   world wide poverty, and as such, the US would not be
> > solely responsible
> > > for
> > >   the costs of the program.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:32 PM, ken barber
> > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > it begs a question of why WOULD YOU PLAN FOR
> > SOMETHING THAT YOU DO NOT
> > > > INTEND TO EXECTE. .
> > > > opps sorry about the caps.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Wed, 4/30/08, Peter Hunsberger
> > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > From: Peter Hunsberger
> > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > Subject: Re: S.2433 global tax on americans
> > to give to other countries
> > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > Date: Wednesday, April 30, 2008, 2:30 PM
> > > >  > Thing is, the bill doesn't propose a
> > tax (or even much
> > > > > in the way of
> > > > > real spending); that's just some
> > commentators take on
> > > > > the supposed
> > > > > implications of the  bill.  Guess it makes
> > for better
> > > > > headlines....
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 1:22 PM, ken barber
> > > > > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > > we actually do help others quite a bit
> > with out
> > > > > putting a dedicated tax for the purpose.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  sarcasm noted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  --- On Wed, 4/30/08, Peter Hunsberger
> > > > > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  > From: Peter Hunsberger
> > > > > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > >  > Subject: Re: S.2433 global tax on
> > americans to
> > > > > give to other countries
> > > > > >  > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > >  > Date: Wednesday, April 30, 2008,
> > 2:15 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > [sarcasm alert/]
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > Wouldn't want to help the
> > poor countries;
> > > > > they might
> > > > > >  > just start
> > > > > >  > purchasing goods manufactured in
> > the US. Far
> > > > > better to
> > > > > >  > continue
> > > > > >  > spending that money on ways to to
> > kill and
> > > > > control people
> > > > > >  > instead.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:39 PM,
> > ken barber
> > > > > >  > <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >  > > senate bill s-2433
> > introduced by obama will
> > > > > impose a
> > > > > >  > 845 billion dollar tax on
> > americans to give to
> > > > > "poor
> > > > > >  > countries."
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  just for your info and it
> > will be voted on
> > > > > any day
> > > > > >  > now.
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> > > > > >  > >  Be a better friend,
> > newshound, and
> > > > > >  > >  know-it-all with Yahoo!
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> > > > > now.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > >
> > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >  -----------------------
> > > > > >  > >
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> > settings or leave the
> > > > > C-PALSY
> > > > > >  > list, go here:
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> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > --
> > > > > >  > Peter Hunsberger
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > -----------------------
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> > >
> >
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> > > > > >  know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try
> > it now.
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> > > > > list, go here:
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> > > > >
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> > > > > --
> > > > > Peter Hunsberger
> > > > >
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> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > > Kendall
> > >
> > > An unreasonable man (but my wife says that's
> > redundant!)
> > >
> > > The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the
> > unreasonable one
> > > persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
> > Therefore, all progress
> > > depends on the unreasonable man.
> > >
> > > -George Bernard Shaw 1856-1950
> > >
> > > -----------------------
> > >
> > > To change your mail settings or leave the C-PALSY
> > list, go here:
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> > >
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> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > Kendall
> >
> > An unreasonable man (but my wife says that's
> > redundant!)
> >
> > The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the
> > unreasonable one
> > persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
> > Therefore, all progress
> > depends on the unreasonable man.
> >
> > -George Bernard Shaw 1856-1950
> >
> > -----------------------
> >
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> > here:
> >
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>
>
>
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-- 


Kendall

An unreasonable man (but my wife says that's redundant!)

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

-George Bernard Shaw 1856-1950

-----------------------

To change your mail settings or leave the C-PALSY list, go here:

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