Kat,
You're pretty much spot-on with early Christian history, and it's
interesting to note that Paul himself had a big part in killing Xians as a
young man. I would have to say that the persecution of the early Christians
who were willing to die (but not kill in the process--that's noteworthy) is
a strong indication of their convictions. Christians in the US, or any
person of any faith in the US, don't realize the extent of religious
persecution that exists even today. There is wholesale slaughter of
Christians in China, Indonesia, Sudan and other nation-states, and these
folks gladly and humbly meet horrible deaths for their beliefs. I would not
want to put my own faith to that test.
And lest anyone think Jesus was an absolute peacenik, flitting about tossing
flowers, they need to read their New Testament account a little closer: Luke
22:36, Luke 12:53, Matt 21:12 are but a few references. Ghandi, too,
recognized that violence at the personal, non-political level sometimes is
necessary, and regarded otherwise as cowardice: "My non-violence does not
admit of running away from danger and leaving dear ones unprotected. Between
violence and cowardly flight, I can only prefer violence to cowardice. I can
no more preach non-violence to a coward than I can tempt a blind man to
enjoy healthy scenes." Ghandi, Young India, 28 May 1924
"'Tis better to be thought a fool, than open one's mouth and remove all
doubt." -Samuel Johnson
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of
thought." -John F. Kennedy
Kyle
-----Original Message-----
From: Kat [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: was brother now Polictics
I understand, Trish but what if an intruder broke into your home and
attacked Amy? Would you kill him to save her life? I'd bet you would in a
heartbeat. I'm sure it'd be murder to you, but to the US court system it'd
be self-defense. I'm sure the intruder wouldn't give a damn about love and
humanity, especially if he's out to kill or maim.
And when were these early Christuns exterminated? I'm trying to remember my
NT history here, but don't recall early Christian history. I remember the
period between Paul and the early Roman Church in the AD 500s as being a
period of the fight for survival until Constantine of Rome converted to
Christianity and established it as the state church of Rome.
Kat
-----Original Message-----
From: Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Oct 3, 2003 11:27 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: was brother now Polictics
Hi Ken,
I don't split hairs - it is killing is killing - period. When you try to
define the killing that's okay - you start a whole new round of killing. I
do not care what it is - or how far along in life it is - if you deprive it
of life - you killed/murder it. People spend all this time splitting hairson
what and when it is okay to kill. The answer - nothing and never. This is
why - no matter how much I love and honor Jesus - I will be a follower of
his believe system as it stands - the very ancient and first "Christians"
lived like Jesus - but did not workship Jesus - They no longer exist - they
where eradicated by other Christians - that's the kind of Christian I would
be. I trust GOD to show the ones who kill and think its okay for any reason
- the error of their ways - when they die. Kinda like which was the part of
do not kill - you didn't understand. Becasue most people are insecure and
worry about being wrong they will argue their point - frankly till they find
the need to shoot you. So they glom onto defending the right to kill -
rather living up to the request not to kill.
What people are saying here is the hair spliting about its okay to kill -
if. I am saying - its not okay to kill - period. If you can defend killing
sometimes - then you can defend all the other thou shalt nots also - and
frankly that erodes the entire moral system. Which is where we are to today.
Not becasue we weren't given good imperitives but because we figure out how
to wiggle out of them when they don't fit our needs. Morality begins with
each of us deciding we are going to follow the good words or make excuses
when they are hard to live up to. Ghandi, defeated the British - and as far
I know - he killed not one person. I am sure God loves Ghandi, even if he
was something other than Christian. Lets face it everytime the Christians -
argue about something - there's another version of Christianity born. So to
me its not about the beliefs its about whose right. Arrogance and pride
should be sins becasue they harm.
As I have said - I am simple - all the hair splitting gives me a headache
becasue it just justifies some one breaking the rules becasue they weren't
meant to apply to them or only apply to them. So, its much easier to follow
- Love is the Law ..... love doesn't kill, love doesn't cheat, lie or steal.
Love doesn't own a big house or drive a fancy car - love is there for
everyone when they need something - a shirt, a hand a meal, a roof. Love is
what Jesus represented with the way he lived his life. I doubt he suffered
self-delusion, hypocrisy and the need to split hairs over his words. The
miracle of Jesus - is that he lived his beliefs, and GOD takes care of those
-we glorify the people who live their beliefs like that - Mother Teresa,
etc. And we fight to the last ditch to be right without evelooking at how
hypocritial we are. The people will defend killing - never see the
hypocrisy of it - its okay me, when I think its right but its wrong for you
becasue I say so.. Think about what you are defending and the endless cycle
of death it perpetuates.
Trisha
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ken barber [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 3:58 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: was brother now Polictics
>
> --- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > killing is murder - whether you kill one or a
> > million.
>
>
> except when you kill a perfectly viable baby and call
> it a fetus.
>
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