Oh Kyle,

   I love it, when you get into the fray. The only correction I would add  - The Romans were not godless, they had a pantheon of Gods - they where no different than any of the other ancient civilizations - we can't judge those civilizations with our morals - it took building on those societies to get where we are today. And if do - then we need to remember - the Burning tImes and the Spanish Inquistion - no one gets away scot free - despite everything we know - we still don't really act like civilized people. We just have a slightly higher level of barberism today.

                                          Trisha


Trisha Cummings,   Data Analyst   
Synectics For Management Decisions, Inc
1901 North Moore Street, Suite 900
Arlington, Virginia 22209
Ph# 703-807-2345
Fax 703-528-6421


> What gets me is that many conservative Christians (which describes ME in
> only in basic theology) feel that the US should be/was a theocracy.  If they
> would only read the teachings of the individual they purport to
> follow--Jesus--they would understand that the biblical theocracy only went
> as far as Israel (ex. Mt 22:15-22, the entire chapter of Acts 28).
> 
> In the New Testament, the church is not expected to function as a nation
> state. On the contrary, the program is clearly different as witnessed by the
> call to submit to, and obey the Roman government--one of the most godless
> and brutal governments in history. (Rom. 13:1) The New Testament is devoid
> of any call to take over society or to run society God's way. Unfortunately,
> many Bible interpreters continue to read the Covenantal promises and
> warnings addressed to Israel in the Old Testament as though they apply
> either to the church, or to the United States (or other countries).
> 
> 
> A very common example of this confusion is the often quoted passage in 2
> Chronicles 7:13 "If I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or if I
> command the locust to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among My
> people, and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray,
> and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from
> heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." It is a mistake
> to apply this passage to the United States? It refers to the
> cursing/blessing section in the book of Deuteronomy. The people who are
> called by God's name are Israel. There is in fact no such promise extended
> to other countries.
> 
> 
> One qualification is needed on this point. In the ancient world, there was
> no opportunity to vote on government issues or candidates. We do not know
> what God would have said if there was. Probably, a good ethical case can be
> made for Christian activism in politics as long as it falls short of
> attempts to establish a Christian state.
> 
> History is full of examples of catastrophic results when the church has
> concluded that it is to run the state. A nation state often has to operate
> in the area of compulsion, punishment and even war. All of these things are
> inappropriate for the church. The church needs to keep crystal clear
> loyalties, excluding any non-biblical insertion into Christian doctrine.
> 
> 
> Manipulators use values similar or even identical to those in the Bible to
> get Christians to back their agendas. For instance, no two themes are more
> universal in world religions than the sanctity of the family and the
> sacredness of the given cultural-national heritage. Oriental religion often
> actually worships parents and ancestors. Islam views the state as expressly
> a religious entity. Most oral religions are one and the same as the
> government of the tribe. This has tended to be true of Christianity as well
> in Europe. The medieval church was convinced that the state was to operate
> under the spiritual authority of the church.
> 
> 
> Linking the universal appeal of blood and soil values with patriotic values> 
> and religion leads to the formation of a civil religion which is sometimes
> only nominally Christian. For instance, the implication of a prominent
> evangelical leading whole football stadiums in prayer before games is clear-
> -all or most of those present must be Christians. It is easy to see why
> people begin to believe that Christianity is synonymous with American
> citizenship or church membership.
> 
> 
> This nominal Christianity is one of the most deadly threats to real
> Christianity for two reasons. In the first place, it causes people to
> believe that they are Christians when they are not, and secondly, it
> misrepresents Christianity to the secular world. Instead of seeing real
> vibrant spiritual living on the part of the church, society sees a
> Christianity that is plagued by confusion and mediocrity.
> 
> Stepping, sweating, off the soapbox pulpit.  Anybody got any snakes I can
> handle?  I hear that snake venom is good for spasms...wait a minute, never
> mind, that's honeybees, not snakes.
> 
> Kyle
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ken barber [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:34 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Brother in Law
> 
> 
> yes, mike is smart and calm and well grounded.
> 
> --- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > No Mike,
> >
> >    You sound like the smart - well grounded guy you
> > are!
> > Religion and Politics don't mix, and when they do -
> > someone ends up =
> > dead.
> >
> >                                 Trisha
> >
> >
> > > I did not like Bush for his Christian
> > conservatism.  Any time a
> > > politician uses God in order to get elected, nine
> > times out of ten =
> > it's
> > > a Machavellian ploy. (Boy., do I sound like a
> > cynic here, or what?) =
> > :-(
> > >=20
> > > BG Greer, PhD wrote:
> > >=20
> > > >Sadly, it seems the Bush foriegn policy, despite
> > Colin Powell's =
> > effort is to
> > > >p*ss the entire world off. N. Korea is much more
> > of a threat than =
> > Iraq, but
> > > >there is little oil in N Korea.
> > > >
> > > >       It is hilarious that he is going to
> > "convince" the UN to help =
> > in Iraq.
> > > >And the reason we have been free of terrorism in
> > this country is that =
> > the
> > > >terrorists have not made a concerted effort yet.
> > > >
> > > >       The more I hear of Bush the more disgusted
> > I am.
> > > >
> > > >Bobby
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>I think it's very ironic that Bush is seeking
> > aid from the very body =
> > he
> > > >>scorned a year ago.  He's realising all too well
> > that America can no =
> > longer
> > > >>afford to act on its own and we cannot operate
> > in a vacuum.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> 
> 
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