ken is in agreement, that the church from 160- martin
luther bore no resemblence to the church that started
at penecost.
also the idea of the government setting a prescribed
prayer is not desirable. on the other hand the
government trying to keep all reigous expression out
of the public square is equally oppressive. just a few
days ago, i was reading about a teacher taking a bble
away from a child that had brought it to school.
--- "Cleveland, Kyle E." <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> Yes, the Romans were pantheists, but their
> government was not theocratic. I
> thought, too, that I did include the witch trials
> and the Inquisition--by
> implication, if not outright explicit example.
> Christianity in it's
> original form--observed at a local level by
> autonomous chirches--only lasted
> less than a hundred years after the final Pauline
> letter (about 160 A.D.).
> Centralization of the church, for which there was no
> "scriptural" precedent,
> began about this time and culminated in the
> "Romanization" of the church by
> Constantine. I think Ken may agree with me, but I
> consider the "church" to
> be apostate from about 160 A.D. up until the various
> Restoration movements
> of the late 18th/early 19th century.
>
> Folks who advocate teaching Judeo-Christian beliefs
> in public school would
> do well to remember why the "Puritans" fled England
> in the first place--to
> escape nationalized religion. I'm probably as
> strong a proponent of
> religion/state separation as anyone.
>
> It pains me to think that folks equate biblical
> Christianity with 1900 years
> of Roman/Macedonian influence.
>
> Kyle
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Trisha Cummings
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: 10/1/03 2:47 PM
> Subject: Re: religion and politics (long-ish); was
> RE: Brother in Law
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> That was more a comment against the godless
> Romans - one doesn't have
> to be Godless to be barbaric.
>
> Trisha
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ken barber [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 2:46 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: religion and politics
> (long-ish); was RE: Brother
> in Law
> >
> > there has been many atrosities committed in the
> name
> > of G-d that he had nothing to do with it.
> >
> > --- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > Oh Kyle,
> > >
> > > I love it, when you get into the fray. The
> only
> > > correction I would =
> > > add - The Romans were not godless, they had a
> > > pantheon of Gods - they =
> > > where no different than any of the other ancient
> > > civilizations - we =
> > > can't judge those civilizations with our morals
> - it
> > > took building on =
> > > those societies to get where we are today. And
> if do
> > > - then we need to =
> > > remember - the Burning tImes and the Spanish
> > > Inquistion - no one gets =
> > > away scot free - despite everything we know - we
> > > still don't really act =
> > > like civilized people. We just have a slightly
> > > higher level of barberism =
> > > today.
> > >
> > > Trisha
> > >
> > >
> > > Trisha Cummings, Data Analyst =20
> > > Synectics For Management Decisions, Inc
> > > 1901 North Moore Street, Suite 900
> > > Arlington, Virginia 22209
> > > Ph# 703-807-2345
> > > Fax 703-528-6421
> > >
> > >
> > > > What gets me is that many conservative
> Christians
> > > (which describes ME =
> > > in
> > > > only in basic theology) feel that the US
> should
> > > be/was a theocracy. =
> > > If they
> > > > would only read the teachings of the
> individual
> > > they purport to
> > > > follow--Jesus--they would understand that the
> > > biblical theocracy only =
> > > went
> > > > as far as Israel (ex. Mt 22:15-22, the entire
> > > chapter of Acts 28).
> > > >=20
> > > > In the New Testament, the church is not
> expected
> > > to function as a =
> > > nation
> > > > state. On the contrary, the program is clearly
> > > different as witnessed =
> > > by the
> > > > call to submit to, and obey the Roman
> > > government--one of the most =
> > > godless
> > > > and brutal governments in history. (Rom. 13:1)
> The
> > > New Testament is =
> > > devoid
> > > > of any call to take over society or to run
> society
> > > God's way. =
> > > Unfortunately,
> > > > many Bible interpreters continue to read the
> > > Covenantal promises and
> > > > warnings addressed to Israel in the Old
> Testament
> > > as though they apply
> > > > either to the church, or to the United States
> (or
> > > other countries).
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > A very common example of this confusion is the
> > > often quoted passage in =
> > > 2
> > > > Chronicles 7:13 "If I shut up the heavens so
> that
> > > there is no rain, or =
> > > if I
> > > > command the locust to devour the land, or if I
> > > send pestilence among =
> > > My
> > > > people, and My people who are called by My
> name
> > > humble themselves and =
> > > pray,
> > > > and seek My face and turn from their wicked
> ways,
> > > then I will hear =
> > > from
> > > > heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal
> > > their land." It is a =
> > > mistake
> > > > to apply this passage to the United States? It
> > > refers to the
> > > > cursing/blessing section in the book of
> > > Deuteronomy. The people who =
> > > are
> > > > called by God's name are Israel. There is in
> fact
> > > no such promise =
> > > extended
> > > > to other countries.
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > One qualification is needed on this point. In
> the
> > > ancient world, there =
> > > was
> > > > no opportunity to vote on government issues or
> > > candidates. We do not =
> > > know
> > > > what God would have said if there was.
> Probably, a
> > > good ethical case =
> > > can be
> > > > made for Christian activism in politics as
> long as
> > > it falls short of
> > > > attempts to establish a Christian state.
> > > >=20
> > > > History is full of examples of catastrophic
> > > results when the church =
> > > has
> > > > concluded that it is to run the state. A
> nation>
> > > state often has to =
> > > operate
> > > > in the area of compulsion, punishment and even
> > > war. All of these =
> > > things are
> > > > inappropriate for the church. The church needs
> to
>
=== message truncated ===
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