Hi Ken,
I didn't question Mike's patriotism, nor anyone else's. his question was I thought - Quote Why is it that one's patriotism is called into question when one questions or disagrees with the status quo now? I generic question - I simply clarified that if some people - when they don't get their point across or you can still question their ideas - go for the personal jugular - these days that would be patriotism. Its mean they not you - the accuser of lack of patriotism has run out of logic and must now resort to emotion and guilt.
Trisha
________________________________
From: Cerebral Palsy List on behalf of ken barber
Sent: Mon 10/30/2006 7:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: I have a question
i am saying that as far as i know, there was nothing
said about patritism in either direction until mike
brought up the question and you imediately joined in
with a standard support statement.
at that point my thoughts were that the debate was
over because you guys had nothing left to say. i have
grown to vew the patritism being questioned as a ploy
when there is nothing else that you can think to say.
that is a direct 180 to the first thing that trish
said about it being a red herring to get mike off
message. she had a lot more stuff in the email with
which one could agree or disagree but nothing that
supported the supposition that mikes patritism had
been challenged to get him off message. my view is
that it was brought and i am supposed to start
explaining that i did not challege anyones patritism
and chose not to do that because i do see it as a ploy
just like i see the "bigot, racist, hate speech" stuff
as a ploy that is used when there is nothing else of
any substance come forth.
and in fact while there were a few post repeating
positions there was indeed nothing new sent after
mikes question of a challenge to his patriotism and
that just reinforces my view that it is a ploy. and i
think it came out of nowhere.
--- "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> So are you saying we shouldn't take such things
> personally? Because I sure
> do.
>
> Kat
>
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: ken barber [log in to unmask]
> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 08:46:10 -0800
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: I have a question
>
>
> the question is just a ploy. if you begin to loose a
> discussion on the ideas in security, you say "you
> are
> questioning my patriotism." then the other person is
> supposed to get off subject to convence you that he
> is
> not questioning your patriotism instead of staying
> on
> the facts he is giving you. it is a ploy just like
> when you are losing on social and other political
> matters and you can't come up with facts to refute
> the
> other person, then you call him a bigot, a racist, a
> homophobe or you say he is engaging in hate speech.
> he
> is then supposed to back off because no one wants to
> be seen as any of these things and so you silenece
> him
> by this ploy when you can't win on facts. both of
> these are recognised as ploys now and not nearly so
> many are backing off any more. instead for the most
> part now ore are just ignoring thee ploys.
>
> --- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > HI Mike,
> >
> > Its good red herring - you then have to defend
> why
> > you are a good American, which gets away from the
> > topic you are actually trying to get attention on.
> > It like the prosecutor asking "So when was the
> last
> > time you beat your wife?" You are instantly
> already
> > in the wrong. rarely can one have a discussion
> where
> > differences are the topic and someone not employ
> one
> > or the 13 fallacies of logic - which draw the
> > attention from the topic to the individual. It is
> > actually being a good American to question the
> > Status Quo, but its not being a good team player
> nor
> > does questioning authority ever go over well with
> > authority especially insecure authority. While we
> > have great a constitution and it tries hard to
> > protect from ourselves, it is can only work as
> long
> > as everyone is a thinking being, and not just a
> > blind follower. Jefferson mandated education
> because
> > he felt educated people made better decisions,
> where
> > more successful at business. The problem being
> that
> > thinking goes the way of the Dodo once emotionally
> > charged persuasive rhetoric and events co-inside
> to
> > create a "common evil" even if the evil is more
> our
> > imagination than reality. We need to fear
> ourselves
> > much more than any terrorist. They killed roughly
> > 3,000 and so far we have more than in war
> fatalities
> > and over 20,000 injuries. We have done a much
> better
> > number on ourselves than they could have ever
> hoped
> > to. Plus we have lost any standing in the world as
> a
> > leader - and any ground gained as a 1st world
> nation
> > - real problems are on the back burner or under
> the
> > rug - and we are rapidly spiraling into becoming a
> > 3rd world country. Yet here we are carefully
> divided
> > in groups so we have no power, Christians vs.
> Every
> > other Religion, Democratic vs. Republicans, Rich
> vs.
> > poor, able-bodied vs. disabled, white vs.
> everything
> > other ethnicity - United we Stand - Divided we
> fall.
> > We have fallen and only a miracle can reverse the
> > damage now. The enemy is never without - the enemy
> > is within. We have always been loosely united by
> > causes - usually external - but now we have no
> great
> > external cause to create unity. The War on make
> > believe Terrorism isn't it. I believe those folks
> > hate us - with cause and would love to do us
> damages
> > - if they could. But how? By preying on our
> > weaknesses. Its not hard now - everyone here hates
> > everyone else and feels used and cheated they
> don't
> > have everything they want - after all the
> > Constitution doesn't promise us a good life but
> does
> > establish the following.
> >
> > "We the People of the United States, in Order to
> > form a more perfect Union, establish Justice,
> insure
> > domestic Tranquility, provide for the common
> > defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure
> the
> > Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our
> Posterity,
> > do ordain and establish this Constitution for the
> > United States of America."
> >
> > And the Declaration of Independence states - "We
> > hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men
> > are created equal, that they are endowed by their
> > Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that
> among
> > these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of
> > Happiness."
> >
> > Neither document insures that everyone will have
> > everything they want - only the chance to go for
> it.
> > Over the years we have radically changed from a
> > frontier nation to a "civilized" nation. People
> > today have nice lives and some folks live in
> > horrendous excess. We have a highly visible -
> highly
> > technical press that beats each other to the bad
> > stuff, and stuffs it down our throats 24/7. This
> > wasn't so in the past. If the press where as
> > motivated to seeking out good and things that
> better
> > our society we would be happier but they focus on
> > the Oh My God stuff - because at some level we all
> > give into that base instinct to stare at the
> > accident, gloat over someone else's misfortune,
> etc.
> > As individuals we all have an impact on not only
> > our lives but the lives around us and society. We
> > chose the groups we line up with and our
> attitudes.
> > To many people lined up with the wrong idea and
> its
> > now a run away train. I wish I had an answer to
> the
> > problems, I truly do. But it would take people
> > taking a truly hard look at themselves and
> accepting
> > responsibility and accountability at every level -
> > right to how we ourselves run our lives - I
> > certainly can't handle money, and I thought if I
> > just made enough it would work - no learning to
> > handle what I have would work. That sad fact about
> > my budget - no doubt what is and works not only at
> > my house and some of your houses but is also at
> the
> > county level, the city level the state level and
> the
> > country level. Its not the government - its the
> > individuals and the flaws and the forging together
> > of these on ever higher group levels that we need
> to
> > solve.
> >
> > We are like alcoholics always having the bottle to
> > blame and never seeing its our choice to drink.
> Some
> > of this is instinctive - The I didn't do it -
> > reflex. WE need to get over this. This is the
> > ruination of us - not the myriad of things we lay
> > the blame on. What is the problem - not who is at
> > fault - what is the problem, and how can we fix
> it.
> > We so busy whining, complaining and finger
> pointing
> > we never get around to solving the problem and we
> > attack those who do - back to "being a questioned
> as
> > a Good American". Its the endless putting out
> little
> > fires and never seeking the source - so you will
> put
>
=== message truncated ===
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