i lean very much more toward kyles views.
 oh, just listened to franklin grahamsview of war. interesting that there
are some that don't think that their religions does not out and out say that
war is wrong in all cases.

-----Original Message-----
From: Cleveland, Kyle E.
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: 2/18/2003 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: mag raine's report from the bay area

Sadaam worries me.  Kim scare the living bejabbers out of me.  North
Korea
feels their back is against the wall, whereas I believe Sadaam is
oblivious
to his own mortality.

In either region, we've nothing to lose and everything to gain by
copious
amounts of subtle, and not-so-subtle, saber rattling.  It's what Kim &
Sadaam understand.

Specific to Iraq and bin Laden, though, as they've been the line of this
thread:

Heck, all of us CPers have been on the butt end of playground bully
pranks.
Did you for once ever think that the bully was ever impressed by
admonitions
of the playground teacher, "you should be ashamed of yourself for
picking on
'helpless' Kyle"?
I don't ever recall a time where her kindly interventions produced a
reprieve from the poundings.  What did, however, make the change was the
time I got so livid that I stood my ground. I used every tool at my
disposal
to wreak as much pain on this kid as was possible.  I hit, bit, kicked.
I
used a bat.  I kicked him in the groin with my braced foot.

Sure, I was punished by the adults (parents, principal and teachers) for
my
retaliation, but that was a pill of small bitterness compared to the
sweetness of not being subject to a daily beating.  Was I justified?
You
bet!  Not because he deserved it or because I wanted to retaliate for
all
the poundings I had taken from him, but because it was the only way to
make
him stop beating me up.  It was the only language he understood.

Before the Soviet Union returned to its pre-1917 geography of several
sovereign states (tongue twister, no?  Hated to pull that one on a bunch
of
spastics <g>.), there were very few acts of terrorism against the Soviet
state.  Why so?  The Soviets refused to make "deals" with terrorist.  In
fact, the smattering of "terrorists" that attacked the USSR were met by
retaliation quick and severe--acts of retaliation that are unspeakable
on
this forum.

Do I think the US should follow suit?  Hardly.  I do believe, however,
that
the Euro/American left sees the world in colors incomprehensible to much
of
the poorest regions of Asia, Asia Minor and Africa.

After Michael Durant's helicopter was shot down over Mogadishu, Somalia
in
October, '93, he had the following exchange with his captor/keeper (a
lieutenant of Mohammed Fara Adid):

Durant: "My government will never negotiate for my release.  Even if you
kill me."

Captor: "Ah, but you see, here, killing IS negotiation."

My whole point is this:  Peaceful negotiation is a foreign concept to
cultures who only settle disputes by force.  If the regions leaders (and
that laughable entity known as the United Nations) had any sense, they
would
welcome US unilateral intervention.  Not only would it bring stability
to
Iraq in a myopic sense, but in the larger scope as well.  George W.
would
have his place in history as he would have an open invitation to create
a
Marshall/MacArthurian plan to "re" build an Iraq that never was.

-Kyle

-----Original Message-----
From: Kat [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:23 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: mag raine's report from the bay area


That's the very thing that kind of stops me from doing the whole peace
thing
without reservation.  I don't support Bush in his drive to wage war on
Iraq
without total and solid evidence of missiles, and I'm letting him know
that
via the local UU Fellowship's group that is activating against war in
Iraq.
I also think this preoccupation with Iraq is drawing attention away from
other issues such as North and South Korea and Saudi Arabia.  We need to
pay
attention to them as well.

History proved Chamberlain wrong, of course; however I don't see Saddam
as
another Hitler, bent on world domination. He's trying to hang on to what
he's got, and he's desperate, which makes him even more dangerous as an
opponent.

Kat

-------Original Message-------
From: "Cleveland, Kyle E." <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 02/18/03 09:10 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: mag raine's report from the bay area

------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
----
The following is the wording of the printed statement that Neville
Chamberlain waved as he stepped off the plane on 30 September, 1938
after
the Munich Conference had ended the day
before:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
----
"We, the German Fuehrer and Chancellor, and the British Prime Minister,
have
had a further meeting today and are agreed in recognizing that the
question
of Anglo-German relations is of the first importance for our two
countries
and for Europe.
We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German Naval
Agreement as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to
war
with one another again.
We are resolved that the method of consultation shall be the method
adopted
to deal with any other questions that may concern our two countries, and
we
are determined to continue our efforts to remove possible sources of
difference, and thus to contribute to assure the peace of
Europe."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
----
Chamberlain read the above statement in front of 10 Downing St. and
said:
"My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime
Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe
it
is peace for our time...
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

The folks who were involved in the peace demonstrations should give the
above historical apostrophe' a good, long think.