Joanne,

I don't know about some of the things you pointed out, although I seem to
recall reading that children are able to learn how to read at an earlier age
then they have traditionally been taught.  Likewise, I don't know how much
homework is too much.  Children need to play too.  I'm reasonably sure of
that.

I was taught the same things about Indians that you were taught.  I don't
feel up to typing a long e-mail tonight, but suffice it to say that your
response to my statement about our high school history education with respect
to Native Americans is enough for me to rest my case.  There is so much more
we should know.

We might start by eliminating the word "mistreatment" from our vocabularies.
I'm not suggesting that it's use indicates only minor abuses. It does appears
to be euphemistic, but only if we carry our thoughts about it to a certain
level.  My final conclusion is that it gives the appearance of presumed
superiority by those who use it.  It's also a far cry from pointing out that
what we have now is akin to blood money.  Neither does it address how the
Constitution of certain allied Native American nations contributed to the
Constitution of the United States.  Generally, if memory serves, credit is
given solely to the Magna Carta.  Even then, I doubt if most people with just
a high school education can recall the significance of the year 1215.

At the very least in this application, we should not use the word
"mistreatment" in the past tense.

Why don't some of the parents know how to read?  Are they bad people?

To put it another way, why don't all these handicapped people go out and get
jobs and support themselves?

Hats off to teachers who teach against their history textbooks.

You drive a good Zamboni Joanne, but I wouldn't call your rebuttal a hat
trick.

Betty

In a message dated 11/30/2000 6:53:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:

> > Perception by the community (not everyone) and parents (not every parent)
>  > When things go wrong in any workplace, the search for the guilty is not
>  far
>  > behind.  The point-of-delivery person is the most visible to the
consumer,
>  > and therefore the easiest person to blame.  Never mind that the guy who
>  made
>  > the pizza screwed up, we'll take it out on the guy who brings it to our
>  door.
>  >
>  > Why don't we ever call the pizza joint and yell at the dork cook?
>  >
>  > If the majority of educators are saying the same thing, perhaps we need
to
>  > start listening to them instead of laying blame.  Not only are they
>  feeling
>  > battered, but they are invisible as well.  I say that this is a serious
>  and
>  > wide spread problem.
>
>
>  As a parent with six kids in the educational system from Kdg through a
>  college grad in 8 days time, kids who are in involved in special educ as
>  well as gifted programs ( sometimes in the same kid), I've seen many
>  educational changes over the years. I really can't go along with your
>  anaylsis above Betty for the simple reason that if the pizza cook was the
>  one who screwed up and the delivery person knew he was delivering a bad
>  pizza, isn't the delivery person just as responsible for a bad product
>  getting to the customer? Likewise in education. I too am old fashion in the
>  way I think our kids should be taught. What I've seen over the past 10
years
>  is the educational system emphasizing the quanitity of work done and not
the
>  quality or giving the pleasure of discovery that should go along with
>  learning. I've had 1st grade reading programs that required a child to read
>  150 pages to qualify for a passing grade for that quarter. It doesn't seem
>  to matter that the kid hasn't been taught to read yet ( heck now a days you
>  need to read by the end of kdg). Also reading the back of the cereal box
>   theres a lot of good info there :>) or the Sunday comics doesn't quailfy
>  for the pages. Reading for pleasure has gone out the window.
>
>
>  >
>  > Parents and home life
>  > In many cases, parents don't have the time required to reinforce what is
>  > taught in the classroom.  I believe that it is imperative that they do
so,
>  > but our economy is such that both parents are often required to work
>  outside
>  > the home, and are unable to help their children in this necessary way.  I
>  do
>  > not fault the parents.  Families have to eat and have a place to sleep.
>
>
>  Actually, I think you have this backwards. The schools don't ( can't)
>  reinforce the lessons taught by the parents in responsibilty and morality.
>  It is also why as noble as the idea of school vouchers are I don't believe
>  they will work. Taking a child out of a "bad" school and into a "better"
one
>  by reputation isn't going to work simply because the child's home
>  enviornment isn't going to change. 1st, bad schools tend to get that way
>  because of little parental involvement. There have always been examples of
>  the outstanding school in the "bad" district because parnets make the
school
>  accountable by being there. These are working parents as well. If a parent
>  is poorly educated himself and can't help the child with homework,
questions
>  etc in the  bad district, they won't be able to in the good, school either.
>  We recently had the school voucher to vote on here in Michigan. A newpaper
>  article in favor of vouchers gave the example of how one family was paying
>   and sacrificing dearly to do it)$15,000/yr to send thier 5 kids to a
>  private school. All I could think of was that $15,000/year added to a
>  mortgage payment would buy you a much better school district anyways simply
>  by moving. The added benefit would be parents wouldn't have to transport
the
>  kids out of the neighborhood,adding to already tight schedules, the kid
>  could have after school activities with neighbor/school friends and become
>  an active part of thier enviornment, and they wouldn't have to leave a
>  "good" evnviornment after 6 hours to return to a less then satisfactory one
>  the rest of the day.
>
>
>
>
>  >
>  > What are kids doing in the afternoon -- after school -- when both parents
>  are
>  > working?  Do they as children truly understand the need to move that
which
>  > they have been taught into long term memory?  Do they recognize the
>  > importance of proper study habits?  Is that being instilled in them at
>  home?
>  > Is that how they pass tests, or do they cram at the last minute, only to
>  lose
>  > most of the information in the long run?
>
>
>  Again this has to do with the value parents have put on educational
>  importance. Mine have been involved with extra-curricular activites, mostly
>  sports.  Why in the world do they recieve more kudo's for scoring the
>  winning goal then an "A" on thier midterm paper? Our family sport is
hockey.
>  My 14 yr old is truly gifted in the sport, grace on skates, very pretty to
>  watch, even when he is giving the oppenent the elbow. He was recruited this
>  year by a travel AAA team which is the the type of team that college scouts
>  watch for future players. It drives me absolutely crazy that no account to
>  the school year scheduling is taken into account when scheduling the games.
>  Tournaments often start on Thursday of a school week sometimes
neccesitating
>  missing 2days of school per tournamnet. This team is very competive in that
>  there are players who travel 90 minutes one way to get to practice 2x/wk.
We
>  even have a team member who lives in another state! In order to attend tese
>  games and have an excused abscence, my son must recieve permission from the
>  prinicipal as well as make arrangements to make sure homework that is due
>  while he is away is turned in beforehand and that tests are taken before
>  hand/or make up dates are arranged. It is up to the teachers discretion
>  wether to do this or not. For sports no one has refused. They did give us
>  hassle for a family vacation to the DC area where there was lot of learning
>  oppertunities though. BTW, my son maintains a B+ average because I require
a
>  B average of my kids no matter what ( they are capable). I have benched him
>  if the average falls below that. It was unbeleivable the whining that came
>  with this benching, from the team as well as his dad.( he still has to go
to
>  practices, he just can't play) They don't seem to realize that if Jack is
>  this good that a future in hockey is possible he needs to learn to read
>  enough to understand the implications of a contract and not depend on a
>  lawyer, father friends etc. He has never had to be benched again. The point
>  was made the first time. I have no regrets doing it.
>
>
>  >
>
>  >
>  > Search your memory of the high school history text books you were given
to
>  > use.  What were you taught about Native Americans?  Were you taught that
>  > Lincoln considered the black man to be his brother, as Douglas humorously
>  > stated?  Was there any mention of Lincoln's racist views?  He had them.
>  What
>  > did your text say about the reconstruction period?  Was the flavor of
>  > reconstruction presented as a takeover by the black man who couldn't
>  handle
>  > the task at hand?  Did your text mention anything at all about the
>  violence
>  > during that period brought on by confederate whites?  I doubt it.
>
>
>  Wow, make me feel young!!!! I do remember learning that the Native
Americans
>  were mistreated, wiped out by disease carried by the "white man" etc.
>  History can swing to far the other way to though. Native Americans weren't
>  all innocent any more than then the 'white" man was all evil. There will
>  always black periods in any nations history where thier was prejudice and
>  hatred. It's moving forward and changing the status quo that is more
>  important then beating a "race or creed" over the head continiously for the
>  past. It's making sure it doesn't happen again, which sadly is rarely the
>  case, as we seem to repeat these mistakes over and over.
>  It's playing devils advocate with our kids. It's teaching them to think
>  outside of authority and how to change things with the least hurt to all
>  involved. MLK and Ghandi both did this. They did not accept society wrongs
>  as rights. Likewise they tried very hard to not act like the very people
who
>  were hurting/keeping them down. They tried to act as non violently as
>  possible, to the point of putting thier life on the line. It goes to
>  teaching children that all life is valuable be it white, black, yellow,
>  young or old, healthy or infirmed. Life is to be respected for what it is,
>  life. I do believe this is the point you wre making further on.
>  Joanne
>


Betty
aut viam inveniam aut faciam
"I will either find a way or make one."