********************************************************
VISIT AFRICAN ASSOCIATION OF MADISON WEBSITE
http://www.africanassociation.org
FOR LATEST INFORMATION ON AFRICA FEST 2009,
MEMBERSHIP, COMMUNITY CALENDAR AND MUCH MORE....
********************************************************
"Anything has to be better than what we do not have."
Not necessarily.
"How many people need to die for you to declare an acceptable benchmark?"
Do you really believe that people don't die as a result of inadequate care under the various national health services? Do you really believe that all anyone has to do is just show up at the doctor's office or hospital and they'll be seen at no cost? Not true.
There are rules and regulations governing the NHS service just as there are rules and regs governing ours. Some people using the NHS have to pay. Everything is not covered. If you've been paying attention, you will have seen that there are more people turning to private health care in those nations with national service.
http://www.cfpc.ca/local/files/communications/health%20policy/private_public_debate19aug05.pdf
From the article: "The Supreme Court of Canada’s ruling in Chaoulli-Zeliotis v. Government of Quebec that Quebec citizens have the right to purchase private insurance to pay for medically necessary health care services when wait times are unreasonably
long. This decision intensified debate on private versus public care and cast a more powerful light on discussions regarding wait times in Canada."
Interesting survey on Canadian health care: http://www.who.int/patientsafety/news/2006_hcic.pdf
******************************
"In the days before volcanoes were invented, lava had to be hand carried down from the mountains and poured on the sleeping villagers.
This took a great deal of time."
----- Original Message -----
From: John Stafford Anderson <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:51 pm
Subject: Re: Secret wait for cancer patients
To: [log in to unmask]
> ********************************************************
>
> VISIT AFRICAN ASSOCIATION OF MADISON WEBSITE
>
> http://www.africanassociation.org
>
> FOR LATEST INFORMATION ON AFRICA FEST 2009,
>
> MEMBERSHIP, COMMUNITY CALENDAR AND MUCH MORE....
>
> ********************************************************
>
> Vera, I don't believe everything I see, which is why I'm pointing out
>
> your propagandizing an article on a Scottish web site to make a
> statement about universal health care in the United States (and you
> refer me to a blog?). Emergency rooms in America DO turn people away
>
> everyday for a variety of reasons, ranging from ethnicity and legal
> status, to affordability and lack of insurance. Anything has to be
> better than what we do not have. And when is it acceptable for you to
>
> jump on the bandwagon? How many people need to die for you to declare
>
> an acceptable benchmark?
>
> Your motives of posting a Scottish article on an African-related list
>
> were as transparent as your follow up statements. Emphasizing how
> misinformed they are is hardly personally attacking you.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 13, 2009, at 1:14 PM, VERA R CROWELL wrote:
>
> > ********************************************************
> >
> > VISIT AFRICAN ASSOCIATION OF MADISON WEBSITE
> >
> > http://www.africanassociation.org
> >
> > FOR LATEST INFORMATION ON AFRICA FEST 2009,
> >
> > MEMBERSHIP, COMMUNITY CALENDAR AND MUCH MORE....
> >
> > ********************************************************
> >
> > The fact that I don't hide my beliefs does not mean that I will
> > allow them to be used in personal attacks.
> >
> > I frequently submit articles from the "left-wing" bible, the NY
> > Times, probably more from the NYT than the WSJ. I posted the article
>
> > not as propaganda, but as information. If we are going to make
> > changes to our health care system in favor of a universal system,
>
> > we had better be very aware of the problems with the existing
> > systems. The actual practice is called 'benchmarking.'
> >
> > You don't just jump on the National health care bandwagon. You
> > thoroughly investigate as many problems with national health care in
>
> > the countries that have it and you make sure that before you decide
>
> > to adopt a similar program that it will solve the problem you need
>
> > it to solve or provide the service you need it to provide. You also
>
> > have to be sure you can avoid the existing problems or that you have
>
> > plans in place to mitigate the inherent problems with the system.
> > Or, if the universal system will cost more and will not solve the
> > problems you need it to solve, then don't make the attempt. You will
>
> > just make the existing problems worse.
> >
> > Emergency rooms in America don't turn people away. They have to
> > treat them. Some people in America may have no health insurance, but
>
> > that does not mean they have no access to health care. The disabled,
>
> > the elderly, and the poor have access to Medicaid in addition to
> > whatever state programs may be available to them. People above a
> > certain income level and those able to work have a more difficult
> > time if they don't have employer-provided health insurance.
> >
> > Don't believe everything you see, John. The movie 'Sicko' is more
> > propaganda than you realize and the poor in Cuba are far worse off
>
> > than you think, especially poor blacks in Cuba. Those fancy
> > hospitals in Cuba are for Americans and tourists, not the average
> > Cuban.
> >
> > The movie 'Sicko' was banned in Cuba. http://medicinacubana.blogspot.com/2007/08/sicko-documentary-is-banned-in-cuba.html
> >
> > ******************************
> > "In the days before volcanoes were invented, lava had to be hand
> > carried down from the mountains and poured on the sleeping villagers.
> > This took a great deal of time."
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John Stafford Anderson <[log in to unmask]>
> > Date: Monday, July 13, 2009 12:34 pm
> > Subject: Re: Secret wait for cancer patients
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> >> ********************************************************
> >>
> >> VISIT AFRICAN ASSOCIATION OF MADISON WEBSITE
> >>
> >> http://www.africanassociation.org
> >>
> >> FOR LATEST INFORMATION ON AFRICA FEST 2009,
> >>
> >> MEMBERSHIP, COMMUNITY CALENDAR AND MUCH MORE....
> >>
> >> ********************************************************
> >>
> >> You emphasize your beliefs with what you post, often submitting
> >> articles from the right wing WSJ, and you emphatically state your
> >> religious beliefs. And you used the article as propaganda in raining
> >>
> >> fire and brimstone at the prospect of nationalized health care.
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jul 13, 2009, at 11:20 AM, VERA R CROWELL wrote:
> >>
> >>> ********************************************************
> >>>
> >>> VISIT AFRICAN ASSOCIATION OF MADISON WEBSITE
> >>>
> >>> http://www.africanassociation.org
> >>>
> >>> FOR LATEST INFORMATION ON AFRICA FEST 2009,
> >>>
> >>> MEMBERSHIP, COMMUNITY CALENDAR AND MUCH MORE....
> >>>
> >>> ********************************************************
> >>>
> >>> John said, "But its interesting, if it there was any truth to those
> >>
> >>> privileged enough to be insured having to give up something, you
> >>> being a Christian and not willing to give up anything for the
> >>> greater good."
> >>>
> >>> I am continually amazed at the personal attacks I receive on this
> >>> board.
> >>>
> >>> First, you have no idea what I give up because it is none of your
> >>> business. I am also amazed at how many people seem to be so certain
> >>
> >>> that they know and should dictate what Christians should or should
> >>
> >>> not be doing, thinking, and believing. Second, what's with the "your
> >>
> >>> right-wing bible?" You are making a lot of assumptions and I resent
> >>
> >>> your attempts to force me into your narrow, political definitions
> >>> based on what you think I believe.
> >>>
> >>> If you are unable to engage in a friendly discussion, whether we
> >>> agree or not, without resorting to personal attacks, I understand.
> >>
> >>> Not everyone is capable of that level of intellectual discourse and
> >>
> >>> I won't hold it against you.
> >>>
> >>> Third, that article was from a Scot newspaper about the National
> >>> Health Service in Scotland, not the WSJ. Why you refer to the news
> >>
> >>> article as propaganda, I do not know.
> >>>
> >>> ******************************
> >>> "In the days before volcanoes were invented, lava had to be hand
> >>> carried down from the mountains and poured on the sleeping
> >>> villagers.
> >>> This took a great deal of time."
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: John Stafford Anderson <[log in to unmask]>
> >>> Date: Monday, July 13, 2009 10:53 am
> >>> Subject: Re: Secret wait for cancer patients
> >>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> ********************************************************
> >>>>
> >>>> VISIT AFRICAN ASSOCIATION OF MADISON WEBSITE
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.africanassociation.org
> >>>>
> >>>> FOR LATEST INFORMATION ON AFRICA FEST 2009,
> >>>>
> >>>> MEMBERSHIP, COMMUNITY CALENDAR AND MUCH MORE....
> >>>>
> >>>> ********************************************************
> >>>>
> >>>> I knew why you posted the propaganda, which is why I responded.
>
> >>>> The
> >>>>
> >>>> answer is people who have no insurance have a secret wait of
> >>>> forever.
> >>>>
> >>>> But its just not as dire as you want it to be. Britain's NHS has
> >>
> >>>> been
> >>>>
> >>>> pointed out as horrible since its inception, so that article should
> >>
> >>>> be
> >>>>
> >>>> taken with a huge grain of salt. Still, NHS is something. Also,
> >>>> people who have insurance have their health care meted out, or
> >>>> rationed, as you say. Ask anyone who has watched a loved one die
> >>>> because they did not have access to a particular treatment. The
> >>>> overwhelming majority of people without health insurance do not fit
> >>>> into the qualification box for low income health care. And surely
> >>>> your right wing news bible, the WSJ, in addition to describing the
> >>
> >>>> end
> >>>>
> >>>> of the world now that Obama is in office, has pointed out to you
>
> >>>> why
> >>>>
> >>>> states don't offer such programs for the impoverished: no money.
> >>>>
> >>>> The world just is not as black and white as you see it. Go see the
> >>>> film Sicko. I got sick in South Africa and the total cost of
> >>>> emergency care and medicine was a whopping $8.00. But its
> >>>> interesting, if it there was any truth to those privileged enough
>
> >>>> to
> >>>>
> >>>> be insured having to give up something, you being a Christian and
>
> >>>> not
> >>>>
> >>>> willing to give up anything for the greater good.
> >>>>
> >>>> John
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jul 13, 2009, at 9:56 AM, VERA R CROWELL wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> ********************************************************
> >>>>>
> >>>>> VISIT AFRICAN ASSOCIATION OF MADISON WEBSITE
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.africanassociation.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> FOR LATEST INFORMATION ON AFRICA FEST 2009,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> MEMBERSHIP, COMMUNITY CALENDAR AND MUCH MORE....
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ********************************************************
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The real question is not "how long the "secret" wait is for people
> >>>>
> >>>>> with no access to health care." In many states, the people with
> no
> >>>>
> >>>>> health insurance through work or who are low-income have access
> to
> >>>>
> >>>>> programs like Wisconsin's BadgerCare. If the state chooses not to
> >>>>> fund such a program, then those people in that state are without
> >>>>> options. The real question is why don't all states offer such
> >>>>> programs to low income and the under-insured?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I posted that article because people seem to believe that national
> >>>>
> >>>>> health care will solve all health care issues and people without
> >>>>> insurance will magically be covered and everything will be fine.
> >>>>> That is not the case. Everyone's health care costs will go up and
> >>>>> the care we receive will be rationed. What is now covered will not
> >>>>
> >>>>> be covered because cost-effectiveness is the #1 priority in
> >>>>> national
> >>>>
> >>>>> health care. If you are old, fewer health care resources will be
> >>>>> expended on you than are expended on the young. Also, if your
> >>>>> illness is caused by your own actions, fewer health care resources
> >>>>
> >>>>> will be expended on you.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ******************************
> >>>>> "In the days before volcanoes were invented, lava had to be hand
> >>>>> carried down from the mountains and poured on the sleeping
> >>>>> villagers.
> >>>>> This took a great deal of time."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: John Stafford Anderson <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>> Date: Monday, July 13, 2009 8:58 am
> >>>>> Subject: Re: Secret wait for cancer patients
> >>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> ********************************************************
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> VISIT AFRICAN ASSOCIATION OF MADISON WEBSITE
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.africanassociation.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> FOR LATEST INFORMATION ON AFRICA FEST 2009,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> MEMBERSHIP, COMMUNITY CALENDAR AND MUCH MORE....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ********************************************************
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Wonder how long the "secret" wait is for people with no access
> to
> >>>>>> health care?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> John
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jul 13, 2009, at 8:46 AM, VERA R CROWELL wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ********************************************************
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> VISIT AFRICAN ASSOCIATION OF MADISON WEBSITE
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://www.africanassociation.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> FOR LATEST INFORMATION ON AFRICA FEST 2009,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> MEMBERSHIP, COMMUNITY CALENDAR AND MUCH MORE....
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ********************************************************
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> More good news on National Health Services!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://www.scotsman.com/latestnews/Secret-wait-for-cancer-patients.5451457.jp
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Secret wait for cancer patients
> >>>>>>> Published Date: 12 July 2009
> >>>>>>> By Eddie Barnes
> >>>>>>> CANCER patients are still waiting as long as a year to get life-
> >>>>>>> saving hospital treatment, despite ministers' claims waiting
>
> >>>>>>> time
> >>>>>>> targets are being met.
> >>>>>>> Scotland on Sunday has obtained official hospital by hospital
> >>>>>>> data,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> unpublished by the Scottish Government, which shows that for
> >>>>>>> certain
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> types of cancer, patients in some units are waiting an average
>
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> 100 days before getting treated.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In the most extreme case, an Edinburgh patient with urological
> >>>>>>> cancer – likely kidney, testicular or prostate – had to wait 375
> >>>>>>> days after first seeing the GP before getting treatment.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In May, Scottish ministers revealed that they had met a target
>
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> ensure all "urgent" cancer cases were seen within 62 days.
> >>>>>>> However,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> the figure does not include the thousands of so-called "non-
> >>>>>>> urgent"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> cases – classified as such because GPs have not flagged up
> >>>>>>> cancer
> >>>> as
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> a possible cause of their illness.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In total, some 27,000 patients are diagnosed with cancer in
> >>>>>>> Scotland
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ever year. But only 9,500 of them were classified as "urgent"
> by
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> GPs.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ******************************
> >>>>>>> "In the days before volcanoes were invented, lava had to be hand
> >>>>>>> carried down from the mountains and poured on the sleeping
> >>>>>>> villagers.
> >>>>>>> This took a great deal of time."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> *** Send email to the list: [log in to unmask] ***
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> >>>>>> http://listserv.icors.org/archives/AAM.html
> >>>>>>> ***
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>
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> >>>
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> >>
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