Kirt:
>There is a balance you seem to miss, though. A pregnant woman need not
>decide between SAD and instincto.
Of course not ! Did I say this?? I don't think so. I do believe I spoke only
for myself and even mentioned that every one must choose their own path.
Whaddya think I am, a diet cult guru or something ??(sorry, couldn't resist
:-) I was recounting my personal experience. For me, there is a lovely
balance in "instincto", in that detox can be extremely mild while providing
vital foods. I rarely think in terms of detox. For me, eating is first and
foremost about *feeding* and nurturing myself, not about purging myself of
toxins.
>Whether or not you have mild or strong detox reactions is interesting, but
>it is not the basis for which you can generalize to humanity, nor to a
>pregnant woman on a mailing list.
Of course not. I'm not doing this. Are you? I am sharing my experience,
which I believe is as relevant as anyone's, and I trust that humanity,
pregnant women included, can choose for themselves what's best from all the
input they have.
>>I also miscarried a child while "instincto"
>
>Sorry to hear that.
>
>>but I must add that my eating
>>was quite likely not the cause.
>
>What if it was?
Then it was. Do you mean, would I change anything as a result? Certainly it
would give me cause to examine it more deeply, but I've actually done (and
continue to do) this anyway for many different reasons. I knew at the time
that my diet was limited because of circumstances, and had that baby been
pre-planned far enough in advance I would probably not have put myself under
those conditions.
>>It's true that I *was* at the time eating a
>>very limited diet, primarily fruit of low non-organic quality and *very*
>>limited variety and quantity because I was living in difficult
circumstances
>>in India. No animal products and no greens, both things we have found to
be
>>*vital* for maintaining a longterm healthy instinctive balance.
>
>So it was your limited diet, or not?
Truly, Kirt, I have no way of knowing for sure. My diet was limited, as I've
already stated. My feeling that it was another cause stems from a very deep
place, and is related to things I have no wish to discuss on this forum.
Perhaps if I'd had a better diet, these other things would not have had the
same effect. It's hard to separate it out since it's all so interconnected.
>>I am also
>>not sure as to the exact cause of the miscarriage since despite being
quite
>>thin and missing nutrients, I felt very healthy and energetic. I lost the
>>baby immediately after witnessing a traumatic drowning and then driving
for
>>an hour on *severely* potholed roads on a motorcylcle, and I actually
>>believe the cause was not nutritional, at least not primarily.
>
>Yes, I can imagine the guilt there would be in allowing that thought to
>rear its ugly head.
Lost me here Kirt. Guilt?? I've certainly considered the possibility, and
even if I had "caused" the miscarriage through my diet, what possible use
would there be for guilt? A reason for examining and changing something,
yes. But guilt?
> Whether or not a healthy fetus can withstand most any
>trauma (as I have been told), I don't know. But as to whether a raw vegan
>diet has been sculpted by evolution to help us procreate I am more sure. Of
>course, the cause of a particular miscarraige will always be pretty
>mysterious I suspect.
Yes, that's true. I'm curious, do you attribute your wife's miscarriages to
diet?
Was she raw vegan? Do you have more information/experiences/ anecdotes about
this?
>>Months after this miscarriage I conceived again, this time in Canada, and
>>added raw animal products to my diet after 16 years as a vegetarian.
>
>I'm confused. You were instincto in India, but vegetarian? Aren't those
>mutually exclusive terms?
I guess you missed the part where J-C mentioned that I began instincto as a
vegan, and I didn't clarify that. I chose to begin instincto as a vegan
because I felt it was a lot better than being a cooked food vegan. I was
struggling with a long-standing psychological block to the texture of meat
(even when I'm attracted to the smell and taste). I have had this since
childhood, and have no idea where it stems from. i still struggle with it.
Does anyone else experience this: an attraction to the idea, smell and
taste, but a strong aversion to actually chewing or swallowing, and being
"grossed out" by certain meats, even though I actually believe it's a great
thing? (doesn't happen with seafood, only meat, and the more fat, the worse
it is. Bone marrow, forget it.) If the meat is *very* lean and the
attraction very strong and especially if the meat is wild, it's not a
problem. It was the same as a child with cooked meat.
>Did you choose to include animal foods once you
>were pregnant again, or beforehand? Was this intellect or instinct? What
>did you think it was then?
I returned from India, passing through France, around the same time I
conceived again and began to add small quantities of meat as soon as I had
access to good quality again. As I recall, the lamb I ate was the only
animal product I ate during pregnancy that was not wild.
It was both intellect and instinct. I knew I was undernourished from the
trip (I absolutely attacked greens of any sort!). I made a point of
"exposing" myself to meat, but only ate it according to attraction, which
was intermittent, and in small quantities. I especially enjoyed deer and
shrimp.
>>At 8 1/2 months pregnant, I was told that my toxo. titres were among the
>>highest ever found, way off the charts.
>
>You must be proud, as it turned out, that you had the courage to stick to
>your beliefs and refuse treatment. Do you have an ESR from that blood test?
>(I admit to ignornance of toxo. titres).
Proud?? Was this a contest??
What is an ESR? I did have access to the numbers if that's what you mean. I
have reams of papers on it, but as far as I remember, they can't actually
measure the protozoa itself, but determine infection from your immune
response. there are two titres.One determines whether you've ever had toxo,
and are now immune. the other shows up only if you've had it very recently,
in the last few months. Both mine were extremely high, especially the
second. the Canadian lab that handled the world's largest toxo outbreak was
unable to measure it because it was so high, and it had to be sent to a lab
in California, which was totally unheard of.
>>The only "defect" that is evident from my illness is the enamel
>>on 6 of his teeth which is very porous due to my fever at the time the
teeth
>>were develping in utero.
>How can you know this for a fact?
I can't, of course. It's an educated guess. This was the opinion of three
different dentists, who are familiar with children who have porous enamel
due to fever during gestation. Also the fact that only 6 teeth are affected.
>How did you find out that you had the toxoplasmosis?
It was part of a series of routine blood tests that women often get early in
pregnancy. I'm not sure why I got them so late. I think my midwives wanted
them as a routine thing (midwifery was just becoming legalized in my
province and they wanted to stay "by the book"), and I'd put it off.
>Your belief is inspiring. However, I would challenge you not to generalize
>your idea to be the one that is best for humanity, or even pregnant
>womenkind. ;)
I did this??? Where? When? How? Huh?
>It's just not enough information to to tell a pregnant
>women to adopt the diet that was so life-changing for you.
I don't believe I ever told anyone to do anything. And even had I done so,
each person is responsible for choosing what to take and what to leave for
themselves. I still believe that sharing my experience is appropriate on
this forum, though of course, I could be wrong.
>I'm curious. Do you recommend to pregnant raw vegan women that they include
>raw animal foods in their diet, or at least allow their offspring access to
>them? Seems only fair, if you are going to recommend raw animal foods for
>pregnant women who eat cooked animal foods. Or was that jean-claude? ;)
Gosh, you just keep baffling me Kirt. You've got me recommending things
right and left!
Certainly for myself, I really question whether raw vegan is a sustainable
or optimum diet in the longterm.
I still am working on my apparently emotional aversion to certain meat (any
suggestions anyone? it's not about the raw, it's about the texture of meat
in general and fat specifically). Happily, our son has none of this problem,
and will gladly eat any part of any animal if he's attracted.
My personal opinion is that raw animal foods are preferable to cooked, in
terms of nutrition.
I already mentioned that pregnant women might want to inform themselves
about toxoplasmosis before adding raw meat to their diet for the first time
during pregnancy. I myself would still do it. But hey, that's just me :-).
As for Jean-Claude, I really adore him and feel "one" with him, but I'm
*not* him!
Warmly,
ingrid
>PS. Hey Manis--how goes?
>
>Secola /\ Nieft
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