This message is getting rather off-topic so I will not respond to it
further on this list.

Ilya

"Anna L. Abrante" wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/18/99 4:44:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask]
> writes:
>
> > "Anna L. Abrante" wrote:
> >  >  I personally would prefer
> >  > the company of animals over people any day of the week and twice on
> Sunday.
> >
> >  > They are pure, they never lie, cheat or steal with maliciousness. They
> do
> > not
> >  > murder for sport ( hunting to eat is not sport).
> >
>
> Ilya responded:
>
>   Well, I have counter examples to above just from my pets, not even talking
> >  about wild animals.
>
> Somehow, I knew someone would.
>
>  I have had different pets that would KNOWINGLY damage
> >  stuff and pretend they didn't. One cat used to scratch off wall paper
> >  off the walls. So I punished him (humanely - used a flower sprayer to
> >  spray water on him while puting his face to the results of his scratching).
> >  After that he seemed to stop. Until I discovered he was scratching off
> >  wallpaper where I couldn't see it
>
> If you cant see it, where's the pleasure in pissing you off??? You do know
> cats scratch trees in the wild to keep claws sharp......
>
> - behind the curtains and the bed and
> >  the sofa, you get the picture.  The other pet was a bunny who would chew
> >  up cables - electrical, audio, etc. After his first or second 'punishment'
> >  (I yelled at him) he seemed to stop, until I noticed that the cables
> >  kept getting worse. I started sneaking up on him and saw that he chewed
> >  them up just as much when I wasn't around.
>
> With the exception of Bugs Bunny, I've not seen very intelligent rabbits.
> See my above comment.
>
>  As soon as he would spot me
> >  he'd stop and pretend to do something else. As for murdering for sport -
> >  have you ever seen a house cat playing with a baby mouse. Not a pretty
> >  sight. Never seen a house cat actually eat a mouse. Sometimes it would
> >  bring it back as a 'trophy', many times not. A coworker recently
> >  described how his (fully grown, not a kitten) cat was torturing a baby
> >  field mouse for a while until he saved the mouse from the cat. At first
> >  he thought the cat would just kill the mouse and didn't want to interfere
> >  with his instincts. But after a while it became obviouse that the cat
> >  knew what to do, but just preferred batting the poor thing endlessly,
> >  like some toy. (This cat has actually killed wild life before, from mice
> >  to rats to birds, so is aware of how to do it).
>
> Yes I have seen it. It's fairly common.  But it doesn't compare to people
> that go out of their way to break hearts. Nor to the average kidnap/rapist
> that uses tools on his victims.  Taking my original post into consideration
> where I say, "take pleasure in toying with....just for fun..." are you saying
> animals are still worse than humans in this???   I think not.
> >
> >  > They take responsibility for their young
> >  Ever heard how cookoos raise their young? Just one example.
>
> Yes, I know about them too.  Nature selected them with this unique way
> of insuring their survival, no evil intent.  And the numbers of cookoos
> throwing out young doesn't begin to compare to the number of parents
> abandoning their children.
>
> >  > and carry themselves in the world.  They do not blame their
> >  > weaknesses on others, and do not spend their lives whining about it and
> >  > making excuses.
>
> >  Do they have a need or means to blame weaknesses on others?
> >
>
> Need??  Do humans really have a "need" for this??  And thank goodness they
> don't have the means.  If they did, they'd probably forget how to hunt for
> themselves
> and would start picketing in some human rights protest, expecting others to
> house and feed them.
>
>   > They do not take pleasure in deliberatly causing others
> >  > pain just for the fun of it.
> >  See above (or see a national geographic video on river otters playing
> >  with fish they never intend to eat or give to their young).
>
> See my above comment too.
>
> >  > They are not hypocrites in a world of finger
> >  > pointers.
> >  Do they have the means to be hypocrites? (i.e. speach)
>
> Nope, and isn't that wonderful?? Precisely why I like them so much....
> >
> >  Don't take this as a slamming.
>
> I Dont.
>
> You simply have a very idealistic view
> >  of animals and express it in the language that is even more idealistic
>
> Yes I do.  But the worst animal, still can't even begin to compare humans
> in their evil towards others.
>
> >  (e.g. what does it mean when you say animals are pure?)
>
> They lack malice aforethought. Or better yet, they lack EGO, how's that?
>  They function on instinct in a way that makes
> sense in their world.  You will never convince me that shooting someone in the
> head for a $2 or less, is equivalent to a cat toying with a mouse, a cat
> scratching a
> wall, a rabbit biting thru wires or otters teasing their babies.  If my
> idealism
> is a bad thing, I apologize, but I'd still prefer their company.
> >
> >  Ilya
> >
> >
>
> Sorry to be so morose. Maybe I shouldn't be training to be a crime scene
> technician.
> Perhaps I should go sell flowers for Conroy's....sorry to take you folks off
> topic so long.
>
> Anna  8-)  <animal eater and lover, but quite saddened by the human condition>