In a message dated 4/1/2002 7:42:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:


> While we may not be living in the 15th century *objectively*, many many
> societies are still quite backward. I'm not trying to be opportunistic in
> saying that, I can't even imagine what I would have to gain. It is simply
> that it appears to me that this is the case.
>

Bill, I am not talking about you personally, in what *you* have to gain, so
sorry to burst your bubble. It is the American imperialists who stand to gain
from the utopian-- and yes, backwards-- picture that the Zionists wish to
paint of Israel. The lovely "paradise out of the desert" with quaint little
shepherders tending their flocks, a "religious enclave" in the land of
"infidels." Considering what's happening in the occupied territories AT THIS
VERY SECOND, how can one collude with that?? No, sir, the brutal repression
is not relegated to the 15th century or "backward societies" but is, as
Malcolm X said, "as American as apple pie."

> The dominant capitalist form of oppression is, as you say, economic. But
> clearly the oppression of the Palestinians of the occupied territories is
> not solely economic, they are also being politically and physically
> oppressed in a discriminatory manner. Although for all intents and purposes
> they are residents of Israel (there being no Palestinian state and Israel
> being vehemently opposed to a Palestinian state and the ruling government
> of the occupied territories) they have no citizenship rights whatsoever.
> And they can't aspire to citizenships rights, simply because they are not
> Jewish.
>

Neither can most Mexicans who enter the United States.... what's your point?
And for what reason do you think that the Palestinians are "being politically
and physically oppressed in a discriminatory manner," if not economic? If you
are making the bourgeois argument that people oppress simply for the sake of
oppression, or are beaten for the sake of being beaten, I would have to say
that I disagree. No oppression or brutality that takes place in the 21st
century, in the context of the nation-state (which is what Israel IS, not a
fiefdom), is absent of a class character. All oppression has a class purpose.

What is the political ideology that Palestinians are being oppressed for? And
what political ideology do the oppressors wish to replace it with? Is it any
different from the ideology that is used in the U.S. to justify the beating
of Blacks in the inner cities?

> As a result, they have no political rights in Israel whatsoever. The only
> legal avenue to obtain citizenship rights would appear to be to convert to
> Judaism, since that is the only avenue to citizenship.
>

I suppose all those Palestinians in the Knesset were forced to convert to
Judaism? Again, please to not speak with authority on the matter if you do
not comprehend the basics of what we are talking about. The condition of
Palestinians is identical to that of working class Blacks and Latinos in the
U.S., period.

> It seems to me that this is not the model of a modern capitalist democracy.
> In fact it is closer to the model of a primitive pre-feudal society.
>

This is an interesting "pre-feudal" society you've dreamed up Bill. One that
has as its main basis for attaining profit surplus an army of proletarian
wage labourers and factory farmhands. How does this "pre-feudal society"
work?

> You appear to want to blame the ills of the middle east on the capitalist
> economic system. As a socialist, I have no reason to defend capitalism, but
> it is clear to me that you are mistaken. As you rightly point out,
> capitalism is a system where the ruling class rules primarily by economic
> coercion, there is no need to discriminate on any other basis than an
> economic one. The oppression of the non-Jewish population of greater
> Israel, including the occupied territories, is not primarily economic, it
> is military.
>

"Primarily by economic coercion" indeed! Please describe a capitalist society
you are aware of that does not discriminate on any other basis-- domestically
or internationally-- besides an economic one. By your definition, then, there
is no such thing as capitalism! I guess we are all living in feudalism. The
point is that capitalism uses ANY means necessary, be they political,
military, physical, economic, or otherwise, in order to increase the profit
margin. This is about the ends, not the means: read Macchiavelli. And now you
wish to single out military oppression as separate from economic? Well, are
you aware of where Israel's weapons come from? They come from private
contractors in the United States, who lobby 74% of congress ("soft money" or
not!)! Ever heard the term "military industrial complex?" Is it real? What do
you think it means?

> Perhaps I'm mistaken, but at the root of this seems to be a form of
> religious bigotry, an irrational insistence of maintaining the state of
> Israel as a state of and for Jews. With non-Jews being non-citizens, or at
> best second-class citizens. This type of chauvinism is a hangover from a
> bygone age and is regarded as repugnant in most modern capitalist
> societies.
>
Ahh, right. We in the modern capitalist societies, profound moralists, find
this behavior repugnant, don't we? But the fact is that in times of crisis
capitalist nation-states ALWAYS revert to national chauvinism. Are you aware
of what continues to happen in the United States in the wake of September 11?
Hundreds of people are still imprisoned, sheerly on the basis of having
Muslim names, dark skin, or wearing head wraps. No-- I think Israel is living
up quite well to its expectations as a "capitalist society."

And must we continually parrot Dan Rather and CNN in framing the entire
matter as a "religious conflict?" Is this the Spanish Inquisition? Does the
United States have a geopolitical hold on Israel because of its interest in
Jews and Judaism? Or is it money?

You probably also maintain that the United States got involved in WWII
because it was morally opposed to racial and religious bigotry against Jews,
no? How morally upright it was of the U.S. to liberate the concentration
camps (forget the fact that the Soviets did most of the dirtywork), and then,
in order to take their just compensation, create a satellite settler colony
in the Middle East to lock itself in as world superpower, provide a
counterweight against Stalin, and have a stake in the control of oil
resources to boot!

Damn!

-- David