Martin, yes there are systems of power and privilege in place, and also of
hatreds and pride and other things.  And yes, I agree that these systems
need to be changed.  But I prefer pacifism and passive resistance as the
means to bring about such changes.  As the examples I cited indicate,
these means have worked many times.  I don't accept that they merely
change the battlelines, unless you mean by that that humankind has certain
propensities that impel it to create such systems and to recreate
alternative similar systems when existing systems of power and privilege
are overcome.  But, this takes us back to your tides and waves and
occasional hurricane, doesn't it -- that is, an inherent imperative for
injustice and egoism that must constantly be resisted.
In the meantime, how effective has armed force been in changing such
systems in the Balkans, in Southwest Asia, in Africa, and elsewhere?  Has
it been more effective than changes brought about by pacifism and
co-operation?  I refer you again to Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, Lech Walensa,
the abolition of slavery, the struggle for equal rights for women, for
people of alternative sexual orientations, and so forth.  Have these
victories come from armed force and terrorism?  Or are armed force and
terrorism more likely to perpetuate the conflict than to neutralize it?
The Balkans are Exhibit A; Southwest Asia (""Mid-east") is Exhibit B;
Latin America is Exhibit C; etc.
Enough of this, however.  The points have been made and people are free to
consider them and accept them or not.  There is other work that needs to
be done, and I will not be responding further.  If the points are
accepted, fine; if not, then a further post isn't likely to change
anybody's mind.
Dan Koenig


Martin William Smith wrote:

> Dan Koenig writes:
> > Martin, your numerous contributions leave me the impression of a
> > principled and well intentioned person who wants the right thing to
> > happen.  However, I think that you give up too easily on pacifism.
> > Think of the progress that resulted from Ghandi, Mandela, and masses
> > of people involved in anti-slavery movements, labour movements,
> > women's movements, environmental movements, peace movements, and so
> > many more.  There will not be a utopia in this plane of existence,
> > but change and improvements do occur, often quite improbably so.
> > History, including current history, is full of examples of this.  It
> > may seem improbable, but then again people of our generation also
> > didn't believe that the Iron Curtain would be voluntarily removed,
> > did they?  Maybe we limit ourselves too much by imagining that
> > something can't be done instead of commiting ourselves to making it
> > happen.
>
> I have no argument with that.  I mean that it sets up a "battle line"
> between the pacifist and the system, and the analogy I will use is the
> man who builds a sea wall to protect his house from the pounding
> waves.  He measures success by the fact that his house continues to
> stand, but he must forever expend resources to keep it that way,
> because the system, in this case the ocean, has not changed.  It is
> natural for the waves to pound against his sea wall.  It will never
> relent because the nature of that system is for the tide to rise and
> fall.  His house will continue to stand as long as he expends the
> necessary resources, unless a hurican comes through and knocks it
> down, which is also in the structure of the system.
>
> If the man could change the structure of the ocean, he wouldn't have
> to waste resources fighting it (don't raise the objection of tampering
> with nature; I don't mean the analogy to go that far).  In the present
> case, we have a system in operation, analyzed at length by Chomsky and
> others.  I am thankful that there are pacifists and non-violent
> movements.  I don't mean to minimize their achievements, not do I mean
> to divert resources away from them.  But they don't change the systems
> they oppose.  They move the battle lines, leaving the systems they
> oppose in place.
>
> martin
>
> Martin Smith                    Email: [log in to unmask]
> P.O. Box 1034 Bekkajordet       Tel. : +47 330 35700
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