In a message dated 6/18/99 4:44:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask]
writes:

> "Anna L. Abrante" wrote:
>  >  I personally would prefer
>  > the company of animals over people any day of the week and twice on
Sunday.
>
>  > They are pure, they never lie, cheat or steal with maliciousness. They
do
> not
>  > murder for sport ( hunting to eat is not sport).
>

Ilya responded:

  Well, I have counter examples to above just from my pets, not even talking
>  about wild animals.

Somehow, I knew someone would.

 I have had different pets that would KNOWINGLY damage
>  stuff and pretend they didn't. One cat used to scratch off wall paper
>  off the walls. So I punished him (humanely - used a flower sprayer to
>  spray water on him while puting his face to the results of his scratching).
>  After that he seemed to stop. Until I discovered he was scratching off
>  wallpaper where I couldn't see it

If you cant see it, where's the pleasure in pissing you off??? You do know
cats scratch trees in the wild to keep claws sharp......


- behind the curtains and the bed and
>  the sofa, you get the picture.  The other pet was a bunny who would chew
>  up cables - electrical, audio, etc. After his first or second 'punishment'
>  (I yelled at him) he seemed to stop, until I noticed that the cables
>  kept getting worse. I started sneaking up on him and saw that he chewed
>  them up just as much when I wasn't around.

With the exception of Bugs Bunny, I've not seen very intelligent rabbits.
See my above comment.

 As soon as he would spot me
>  he'd stop and pretend to do something else. As for murdering for sport -
>  have you ever seen a house cat playing with a baby mouse. Not a pretty
>  sight. Never seen a house cat actually eat a mouse. Sometimes it would
>  bring it back as a 'trophy', many times not. A coworker recently
>  described how his (fully grown, not a kitten) cat was torturing a baby
>  field mouse for a while until he saved the mouse from the cat. At first
>  he thought the cat would just kill the mouse and didn't want to interfere
>  with his instincts. But after a while it became obviouse that the cat
>  knew what to do, but just preferred batting the poor thing endlessly,
>  like some toy. (This cat has actually killed wild life before, from mice
>  to rats to birds, so is aware of how to do it).

Yes I have seen it. It's fairly common.  But it doesn't compare to people
that go out of their way to break hearts. Nor to the average kidnap/rapist
that uses tools on his victims.  Taking my original post into consideration
where I say, "take pleasure in toying with....just for fun..." are you saying
animals are still worse than humans in this???   I think not.
>
>  > They take responsibility for their young
>  Ever heard how cookoos raise their young? Just one example.

Yes, I know about them too.  Nature selected them with this unique way
of insuring their survival, no evil intent.  And the numbers of cookoos
throwing out young doesn't begin to compare to the number of parents
abandoning their children.


>  > and carry themselves in the world.  They do not blame their
>  > weaknesses on others, and do not spend their lives whining about it and
>  > making excuses.

>  Do they have a need or means to blame weaknesses on others?
>

Need??  Do humans really have a "need" for this??  And thank goodness they
don't have the means.  If they did, they'd probably forget how to hunt for
themselves
and would start picketing in some human rights protest, expecting others to
house and feed them.


  > They do not take pleasure in deliberatly causing others
>  > pain just for the fun of it.
>  See above (or see a national geographic video on river otters playing
>  with fish they never intend to eat or give to their young).

See my above comment too.

>  > They are not hypocrites in a world of finger
>  > pointers.
>  Do they have the means to be hypocrites? (i.e. speach)

Nope, and isn't that wonderful?? Precisely why I like them so much....
>
>  Don't take this as a slamming.

I Dont.

You simply have a very idealistic view
>  of animals and express it in the language that is even more idealistic

Yes I do.  But the worst animal, still can't even begin to compare humans
in their evil towards others.

>  (e.g. what does it mean when you say animals are pure?)

They lack malice aforethought. Or better yet, they lack EGO, how's that?
 They function on instinct in a way that makes
sense in their world.  You will never convince me that shooting someone in the
head for a $2 or less, is equivalent to a cat toying with a mouse, a cat
scratching a
wall, a rabbit biting thru wires or otters teasing their babies.  If my
idealism
is a bad thing, I apologize, but I'd still prefer their company.
>
>  Ilya
>
>

Sorry to be so morose. Maybe I shouldn't be training to be a crime scene
technician.
Perhaps I should go sell flowers for Conroy's....sorry to take you folks off
topic so long.


Anna  8-)  <animal eater and lover, but quite saddened by the human condition>