On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, Amadeus Schmidt wrote:

> Yes, I think they really eat more in caloric terms _although_
> they are feeling to be hungry and still have carvings and therefore
> think to be eating little (most people on diet report diet "sins").

Research fails to support this.

It could be that virtually all of us are vitamin deprived and as
a result eating more calories than we should, but only some of us
are, for unknown reasons, becoming obese as a result.  That is an
*hypothesis* that would be interesting to investigate.

> But also
>  it may be the case that incomplete vitamin supplementation
> hinders the proper use of ingested calories.
> For example calories can possibly not be used for proper burning/heating
> because of a vitamin lack. (B1 is needed for burning of carbs, right?)
> This may cause storage instead of use.

Possibly.  Is there evidence that this is in fact what is
happening?

> Since organs are much richer in vitamins also organs (brain,liver)
> instead of muscle might be the right direction.

The trouble with this recommendation is that in a polluted world
the organ meats tend to concentrate the pollutants.  Wild animals
will drink from any water at all, and there are relatively few
rivers and streams that are safe to drink from anymore.

> Every peace of cow muscle will satisfy ones protein needs *without*
> supplying the vitamins needed with. Bad thing is that our protein
> digestion ability is limited, so we can't compensate it by adding other
> protein-rich food (like lots of vegetables).
> IMO this can lead to large scale consumption of refined carbohydrates,
> and it does so in the "normal" western diet.
> Reason: proteins are already comeing from daily meat (abt 250grams),
> but still calories are missing. Now: how to get your energy _without_
> adding more proteins?
> Well it _is_ done presently by sugar, refined grains, pure carbs, bad fats.
> But these are not comeing wi
> th vitamins.

Well, I agree with this.  But the reason why the calories are
coming from these foods is that these are the foods that are
being commercially shoved down our throats.  That is, if the
supermarkets were not filled with these foods, we would indeed be
eating large quantities of vegetables and fruits.

> Way out for paleos:
> - Energy from fruit and/or good fats (not pigs and cattle fat).
> - Using vitamin extreme plants (carrot cabbage spinach acerola)
> - much plant food (more vitamins per _calorie_, otherwise you need more
>                    calories for your vitamins :-)  )

Getting adequate protein, vitamins, and calories from plant foods
is difficult without resorting to non-paleo plant foods, unless
one has access to ample sources of fruit and nuts. These are the
most calorically dense paleo plant foods. (I know that we have a
difference of opinion about what counts as adequate protein)

As you know, I have lately been experimenting with a kind of
"paleonuts" variation, in which I have been eating reduced
amounts of lean meat and getting most of my protein and calories
from nuts and, to a lesser extent, fruit.  I do eat greens, such
as wild purslane, but for vitamin content, not for calories.  The
results have been encouraging in that I have begun losing weight
again, after being on a plateau for about a year.  The nuts also
supply a fair amount of protein, of course.

Todd Moody
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