John Korber wrote:
> Martin wrote:
> >You are leaving the field after only stating the problem.  You have
> >said that direct control is a requirement to make a public university
> >a socialist institution.  You have made a statement about what is
> >required in the metamodel for a socialist structure, but that doesn't
> >say anything about whether and how that metamodel will generate a
> >socialist model.
>
>         This involves convincing people that socialism is a
> worthwhile project to attempt, building a climate of solidarity that
> is that allows people to feel secure enough to attempt it, and then
> working out the how on a daily basis through practical efforts on
> practical projects. It involves building socialist/anarchist
> culture, and extending socialist/anarchist practice into everyday
> life, into the relationships you are involved in everyday.

Although I agree with the sentiment, I don't see how it can work.  You
can't convince people that socialism is a worthwhile project to
attempt, unless you show them exactly what it is they are committing
to.  It's like you're a carpenter, and you blow into town one day
offering to build everyone the best of all possible homes.  You tell
them about the wonderful quality of your construction, the warmth and
harmony of your wood joinery, and your graceful blending of
architecture and environment.  You tell them all they have to do is
tear down the houses they are living in, and then you will build all
these wonderful homes.  But when they ask to see the engineering
drawings, you tell them about the wonderful quality of your
construction, the warmth and harmony of your wood joinery, and your
graceful blending of architecture and environment.

>         There are lots of practical situations where these issues
> arise, and where opportunities arise to put these ideas into
> practice. In my case: when dealing with colleages at work, students
> in the classroom, people in the community activist groups I'm
> involved in, and in personal relationships.

But I don't want you to convince me.  I want you to tell me how it's
going to be done.  I'll take care of my own convincing.

>         We aren't about to take over the university at this point,
> far from it, but at my age I've lost any impatience I might have had
> year ago. I'm content with making little strides at this point. I'll
> be perfectly charmed if I manage to get out a newsletter for one
> group I work with. I'll be delighted if I can manage to come up
> with, propose, and have accepted changes to the way the food coop i
> belong to is governed. I'll be overcome with joy if i can get an
> anarchist softball league started.

I don't even want to know how an anarchist softball league works.

>         These are my modest personal goals currently. Hopefully they
> will contribute to building a different society in the long run. I
> shall breath deeply while waiting. I certainly won't be holding my
> breathe as they say. I wish I had nine lives. I find it very
> interesting.

And I wish you the best, but I must say I'm not optimistic.

> > You state a general requirement: For a public
> >university to be a socialist structure, the students, faculty, etc
> >must have direct control of it.  ...but you don't say how it can be
> >implemented.  You don't account for the problems it will create.  You
> >have added a requirement to the metamodel and then you have left the
> >field without actually building anything.
>
> There would be problems, no doubt, but I don't want to talk about
> something I have no practical experience with. I haven't attempted
> to have the people seize control of a university lately.

You don't want to talk about something you have no practical
experience with.  We don't have an anarchist university, let alone an
anarchist society, so if you don't talk about how it's going to work,
how you think it should work, where you see the weaknesses, where you
see the strengths, *who* is going to do it?

Don't say "Everybody."  Somebody has to do the hard work of putting a
plan on the table.  You have to start with a plan.  You have to have
something to work with.

> > You get to bask in the
> >cheers from all the socialists in the stands, but then you disappear
> >into the locker room
>
> What! Get those socialists out of the stands and onto the playing
> field!!!

Hear! hear! But let's forget the idea for an anarchist softball
league.

> >and the real work hasn't even started yet.  You
> >haven't built anything from the metamodel.  You haven't produced a
> >solution.
>
> Well, who knows. I might eventually get around to this university
> thing, but like I say, I'm real busy at the moment, though my
> projects are really quite modest. I'm only one person. I burned
> myself out once 15 years ago, but I was so much older then. I'm
> younger than that now.
>
> OK, so I think we're starting to bore some some of our fellow
> listers. Let's leave socialism for a bit. To the showers Martin!!!

No, I'm staying on the field to see if I can get Bartlett to organize
an offense.  I think you don't want to commit to definite opinions
about how some of these institutions should be structured and how they
should operate.  I suppose this is a common problem, because no matter
how many anarchist/socialist opinions you try to juggle, someone will
come along and shoot them down.  The idea, though, is to see how long
you can keep them in the air.  You get better at it after awhile, and
every once in awhile you get one to stay up for 17 years.  Are you
listening to me, Bartlett?

martin

Martin Smith                    Email: [log in to unmask]
P.O. Box 1034 Bekkajordet       Tel. : +47 330 35700
N-3194 HORTEN, Norway           Fax. : +47 330 35701