Hi All,


I promise I'll stop with this topic, but there's just so much here.


First, I finally got braille to work with Narrator, and Narrator both 
speaks and displays the message list in Thunderbird 45. NVDA also does 
both. I'll check my lapptop and Thunderbird 52 later, but since NVDA 
does both and Narrator speaks, I'm guessing Narrator will produce 
braille as well. So the problem is Jaws 18, which doesn't play nice with 
the message list in Thunderbird 52 or 45, and maybe Jaws 17 as well, 
which doesn't play nice with the message list in Thunderbird 52.


Second, having Narrator produce braille is a big moment. I got a little 
teary. I'm still working things out. I've got a little Seika with a 
Perkins keyboard and a big Seika without. The big Seika is the one that 
is hooked up to my computer. I can't seem to type with the regular 
qwerty keyboard while braille is active. I'll need to figure out how to 
change this. I should probably read the manual, but I'm operating under 
the false belief that it's quicker to just muddle around.


Third, I think the offer of a free Windows 10 update is still available. 
The official website doesn't have an expiration date, and I'm sure I 
read a mainstream article about this published within the last two 
months. The offer page is here:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/accessibility/windows10upgrade


Fourth, when you run the update using the Windows Update Assistant, the 
first thing that happens is you get a diagnostic that tells you whether 
you can update based on your memory, hardware, and disk space. One of 
the screen readers doesn't read the last item so if you hear that your 
memory is OK and your hardware is OK, but you aren't able to update, 
then you need to free up disk space by running Disk Clean-UP, 
uninstalling stuff, and using Disk Clean-Up to remove system files.

Fifth, the update process is blind friendly, but it's a good idea to 
have a sighted person nearby just in case. I updated a few computers 
from Windows 7 to Windows 8, and I've taken a few more computers through 
the 8, 8.1, and various 10 updates. In all but two cases, I was able to 
start Narrator (Windows+enter or ctrl+Windows+enter) and finish setup on 
my own. In one case, speech got muted, and a sighted person had to 
unmute it. In another, I had trouble navigating the screen where you 
create your Microsoft account; this was a while ago, so the process may 
be easier now, and of course, if you create the account ahead of time or 
already have it, life should be good.

If the computer is old, the Windows 10 update might be a good excuse for 
buying a new one, especially if the current one is something of a diva.

Happy Easter to all.

Ciao

On 4/15/2017 8:52 PM, Duane Farrar wrote:
> Thanks, Ana, for this additional information. I had pondered upgrading 
> to JAWS 18 in the hopes it would fix the problem, but apparently that 
> is not the case. I haven't yet had the time to tackle NVDA. I had once 
> tried to upgrade to Windows 10, but the upgrade was unsuccessful for 
> one reason or another (I couldn't read the dialog box that gave the 
> reasons and I haven't tackled it again with sighted assistance.) Do 
> you know if users of screen readers can still get a free upgrade to 
> Windows 10 and should I bother doing so on this desktop that is now a 
> few years old but has 16 GB of RAM and lots of disk space available? 
> It does have an annoying habit of blowing  up on an all-too-frequent 
> basis that I suspect may be due to JAWS clashing with the video or 
> sound card or both. I also wonder if these might have prevented me 
> from upgrading to Windows 10 as well? My desktop was more or less 
> custom-built and was not an off-the-shelf Dell or equivalent. There 
> are days I just want to turn it into a boat anchor.
>
> And I hope it's listening!
>
> Thanks,
> Duane
>
>
> On 4/15/2017 8:38 PM, Ana G wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>> One more observation about the issue Duane describes of not hearing 
>> anything when arrowing through the list of messages in Thunderbird. 
>> The issue is definitely a Jaws issue.
>>
>>
>> On my desktop, I was running Jaws 17 and Thunderbird 45. Things were 
>> working fine for me. Then I updated to Jaws 18 after I updated to 
>> Windows 10 Creator's. Jaws is speaking the information when I arrow 
>> up and down the message list in Thunderbird 45, but it's not sending 
>> it to my Seika braille display. Everything else is sent to the 
>> display (i.e., my desktop icons and the from, to, subject, etc. 
>> fields when I tab from the message list in TB).
>>
>>
>> On my laptop, I updated to Jaws 18 and Thunderbird 52 after updating 
>> to Windows Creator's. Jaws doesn't speak any information when I arrow 
>> up and down the message list, and it doesn't send any information to 
>> the braille display. The From, To, Subject, etc., fields are all fine.
>>
>>
>> In both cases, NVDA works as expected, both reading the information 
>> and sending it to the display. Narrator is also reading the 
>> information. I'm having trouble getting braille working with 
>> Narrator, so I don't know if braille works in this area.
>>
>>
>> Since I've had this problem with Jaws and Thunderbird off and on, I'm 
>> guessing it's Jaws.
>>
>>
>> On 4/10/2017 1:43 PM, Ana G wrote:
>>> Duane,
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you.
>>>
>>>
>>> The NVDA download link is here:
>>>
>>> https://www.nvaccess.org/download/
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm pretty basic with NVDA. I always mean to spend a couple of weeks 
>>> learning it, but somehow that never happens. Here are a couple of 
>>> tips, "a couple" being the operative phrase:
>>>
>>> * The modifier key is insert. You can use the caps lock key, but you 
>>> need to set that up in NVDA Preferences.
>>>
>>> * To get into NVDA Preferences, press ins+n or caps-lock+n. After 
>>> that, right-arrow once, then down-arrow to go through a submenu of 
>>> options. Press enter, then hit tab to go through the settings for 
>>> that option.
>>>
>>> * eSpeak is the TTS engine that comes with NVDA. I'm not a fan. You 
>>> can buy voices for NVDA or just use the Microsoft voices that are 
>>> used by Narrator. These voices are a little sluggish, 
>>> pre-Windows-10-Anniversary-Update. I didn't mind them for browsing 
>>> the web, etc., but I did get a little annoyed with the sluggishness 
>>> when I was trying to get work done. Even with the latest Windows 
>>> version, they're slower than Eloquence, but noticeably better than 
>>> before.
>>>
>>> * I use the NVDA laptop layout. I actually really, really like the 
>>> Jaws laptop layout and wish NVDA would do something similar, but Ana 
>>> hopes and dreams. Anyway, caps-lock+l is say line. caps-lock+a is 
>>> say all. And for reading word by word, you use standard Windows 
>>> commands, ctrl+left/right-arrow.
>>>
>>> * To go into forms mode, press space or enter. To exit it, press 
>>> Escape.
>>>
>>> I think that'll get you going.
>>>
>>> Good luck.
>>>
>>> Ciao
>>>
>>> On 4/5/2017 7:27 PM, Duane Farrar wrote:
>>>> Hi Ana,
>>>>
>>>> I was using version 45.something prior to updating to version 52.0 
>>>> last night and everything worked fine. This is the first time I 
>>>> have encountered this problem.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to give NVDA a try. Where is the best place to download it 
>>>> from? Do you have any tips for a long-time JAWS user?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Duane
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4/5/2017 5:04 PM, Ana G wrote:
>>>>> Hmm, I'm not sure what version of Thunderbird I'm running. It was 
>>>>> updated within the last couple of weeks, and Help > About says I'm 
>>>>> up to date though the version number it gives seems to be 
>>>>> 45.8something.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> anyway, I'm not having the problem you describe, but I have had it 
>>>>> in the past: Jaws says, "Blank," or nothing at all as I arrow up 
>>>>> and down the list of messages. I can tab from this blankness to 
>>>>> the From field, etc., and though this works fine, it's really 
>>>>> annoying and surprisingly time consuming. I routinely go through 
>>>>> lots of email, and having to tab to the different fields to know 
>>>>> which message I'm on slows things down. I seem to remember that 
>>>>> the message list works fine when you are arrowing through search 
>>>>> results.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My experience is that this is a Jaws thing. NVDA works fine, and 
>>>>> in Windows 8 and above, Narrator works fine too. Btw, I think I 
>>>>> remember that I can read the message body with Narrator only in 
>>>>> Windows 10 Anniversary and above, but I digress. In some cases, 
>>>>> Jaws just magically starts or stops reading the Thunderbird 
>>>>> message list for a few days here and there. In other cases, Jaws 
>>>>> starts and stops working as Thunderbird gets updated.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never found any solution other than switching to NVDA when 
>>>>> working with email.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/5/2017 7:01 AM, Duane Farrar wrote:
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am using JAWS 17.0.2729 with Mozilla Thunderbird as my email 
>>>>>> client on a Windows 7 computer. Last night Mozilla released 
>>>>>> Thunderbird version 52.0, which was installed without any 
>>>>>> problems. Once I restarted Thunderbird, I found JAWS could no 
>>>>>> longer read the message list pane. (I am using the "Classic View" 
>>>>>> display.) JAWS can still read all of the other window panes that 
>>>>>> are displayed, such as the folder list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I tab into the message list pane, JAWS simply says "Not 
>>>>>> Selected" and says nothing at all if I navigate up and down in 
>>>>>> the list using the home, end and arrow keys. The messages are 
>>>>>> indeed all still there. By activating the "Message Pane" from the 
>>>>>> "Layout" sub-menu, I can tab from the message list and preview 
>>>>>> the message that is currently selected in the list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While this gives me a workaround, it is annoyingly slow and 
>>>>>> cumbersome. I have searched through all of the Thunderbird menus 
>>>>>> and sub-menus, trying to find settings and options that might 
>>>>>> have an impact on this probelm. I could not, however, find any 
>>>>>> such items that dealt specifically with "Accessibility" or 
>>>>>> "Preferences" or anything obvious like that. Do such items exist 
>>>>>> in Thunderbird? I did try restarting Thunderbird without loading 
>>>>>> any add-ons ("safe mode") but that also had no effect. I viewed 
>>>>>> the Version Update history but there did not seem to be a way to 
>>>>>> return to the previous version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Has anyone else encountered this problem? Is this also a problem 
>>>>>> for users with JAWS 18 or NVDA?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All advice and suggestions are welcome!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Duane
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List.
>>>>>> Archived on the World Wide Web at
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List.
>>>>> Archived on the World Wide Web at
>>>>>    http://listserv.icors.org/archives/vicug-l.html
>>>>>    Signoff: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>    Subscribe: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>    VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List.
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>>
>
>


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