I feel we will all come to the sure and certain understanding of the truth. 
as stated in First timothy  3 verse 15.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Ferguson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2014 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Praying to the dead


> John, that's correct. Amen!
>
> I don't mean what I'm saying to be unkind.
>
> I was raised a Catholic, and I don't understand most of what Angel is 
> talking about.
>
> I'm praying for you, Angel that you will see the light and the truth. 
> <smile>
>
> You are all loving! <smile>
>
>
> Thanks much.
>
> Many Blessings,
>
> Pat Ferguson
> "I can Do all Things Through Christ Who Strengthens Me." Phillippians 
> 4:13.
>
> At 02:21 PM 7/26/2014, you wrote:
>>Just more long-winded logic to support Catholic tradition.
>>
>>earlier, Angel, wrote:
>>>Jesus is the only mediator for all mankind.  Which is meant by the word 
>>>men. In the same sense as man was created in the form of Adam.  To seal 
>>>the terms of the new Covenant.   (first timothy 2 verses 1 through 6 
>>>makes this clear if read in context.)Saint Paul, in this passage commands 
>>>us all to do just what we are doing.  We are interceding.  This is what 
>>>the saints who are always alive in Christ, and are conscious in Christ, 
>>>as are we are doing. Too fulfill the exhortation from Saint Paul in his 
>>>letter to dear saint timothy.  You will take note in the same passage, 
>>>where saint Paul maintains Jesus is the mediator between Men and God, he 
>>>doesn't exhort us not to use saints to mediate for us to God.  Because 
>>>Christ is the one and sole mediator.  If he had meant that for us 
>>>individuals, he surely would have made this clear in his letter to 
>>>Timothy.  Whatever we might say concerning Saint Paul, ambiguousness was 
>>>not one vice possessed by him.  Else, we on earth could not, and would 
>>>have no right to intercede for each other while we reside on earth to the 
>>>lord our God.  We would have no right to ask anyone for prayer assistance 
>>>at all.  If Christ were truly the only mediator between us and God.  The 
>>>mediation of Christ, and the interceding of the saints either visible or 
>>>invisible are two different concepts.  About which there is no confusion 
>>>at all by saint Paul in this passage.  What then is the distinction made, 
>>>and about which there is no confusion?  The distinction is made in first 
>>>timothy 2 verse 6 when it makes clear Christ's mediation regards the fact
>>>he ransomed himself for us.  Being the "man" who ransomed himself for us 
>>>"men".  Clearly referring to the sealing with his blood for us the terms 
>>>of the new covenant.  This is also amplified in another letter from saint 
>>>Paul to the Hebrews In Hebrews chapter 9 verse 15 in this verse saint 
>>>Paul says Christ is the mediator of a new covenant by means of death for 
>>>the redemption of the transgressions of the first covenant.  Also, in 
>>>Hebrews chapter 12 verse 24.
>>>Where it talks about the mediation of the   new covenant in the blood of 
>>>Christ.  An obvious reference to the death of our Lord as it relates to 
>>>the new covenant. Which proves there is a difference between the 
>>>mediation of Christ, and the interceding all saints are commanded to do 
>>>by saint Paul. Which also makes clearer the mediation which belongs to 
>>>Christ alone is between the whole human race and God.  The man who is 
>>>also the complete God incarnate is the only one who can mediate between 
>>>God and the human race. Made manifest by his death and resurrection. 
>>>Which paid for our sins. Without which, there would be no need for any 
>>>intercession by any saint. Jesus, by his mediation gave to us the 
>>>privilege to intercede at all. Without the sole mediation of Christ, we 
>>>would never be able at all to entreat God for anything at all. 
>>>Regardless on which plane we reside. Because the entirety of the saints 
>>>compose the body of Christ.  There is no separation of the members of the 
>>>body of Christ.  This is why the great cloud of witness is so important. 
>>>Because we all are equally members of the body of Christ.  The saints can 
>>>not mediate, as referenced by these passages, to reinforce the new 
>>>covenant.  Jesus did that when he ransomed himself for us.  But, we and 
>>>they can and do intercede on our behalf to the lord our God.      -----  
>>>Original Message ----- 
>>>From: "john schwery" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2014 6:03 AM
>>>Subject: Re: Praying to the dead
>>>
>>>
>>>>Angel, why not?  Because there is only 1 mediator between God and man, 
>>>>the man,Christ Jesus.  You are giving those who have gone on before us, 
>>>>attributes that only God has.  You are in a dangerous position, breaking 
>>>>the first commandment.  You are putting your own spin on topics, using 
>>>>logic that won't work.
>>>>
>>>>earlier, Angel, wrote:
>>>>>That sort of puts a constraint on just what it is they can do doesn't 
>>>>>it? If the angels, who are constantly praising God, as are we here on 
>>>>>earth without ceasing, and are given time to constantly serve us as 
>>>>>guardian Angels, ministering to our needs.  If we can be constantly 
>>>>>praising God, both waking and sleeping, while we have jobs and raise 
>>>>>families here on earth.  Why can't the saints intercede for us in 
>>>>>heaven, as we who live here in this plane of existence find time to 
>>>>>pray for those on this list who ask for prayer?  While still praising 
>>>>>God.  If we can find time in this temporal world to pray for those who 
>>>>>request it of us, then the saints, who live in a timeless eternity 
>>>>>surely can devote time, which isn't even an issue for them any longer 
>>>>>to pray for us.  Especially so, because physical constraints such as 
>>>>>the needs presented by the physical body are not issues for them. 
>>>>>Constant praise to God in Heaven is understood, and is assumed by us as 
>>>>>a primary postulate by all the heavenly host, both angels and saints.
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Carter" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2014 12:38 AM
>>>>>Subject: Re: Praying to the dead
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>They can not intercede for you only Jesus can the saints are in Heaven 
>>>>>where you remember the earth know more because you are to busy praising 
>>>>>The Lord read Luke 16.
>>>>>
>>>>>Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Jul 25, 2014, at 8:57 PM, Angel <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>When the saints either living or dead intercede for us, we aren't 
>>>>>>praying to them.  Just as I am not praying to you if I were to ask for 
>>>>>>your prayers for me.  If I were wanting your assistance that I might 
>>>>>>endure a difficult time in my life.  Also, as the second McCabe's 
>>>>>>isn't in your cannon, I won't even expect those scriptures to cancel 
>>>>>>out those which you quoted.  As they would be dismissed.  I will not 
>>>>>>engage in an argument regarding something without a possible 
>>>>>>satisfactory resolution for either of us.  Prayers aren't offered up 
>>>>>>to our saints.  In the same sense as I suspect was meant by your post. 
>>>>>>Rather the saints continue to exist conjoined with us as does Jesus, 
>>>>>>and the blessed Theotocos .
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Carter" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 7:11 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Praying to the dead
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A few verses for those who think you can pray to dead ones. Like 
>>>>>>saints or relatives. Isaiah 8:19-20.  19. When someone tells you to 
>>>>>>consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a 
>>>>>>people inquire of their God?  Why consult the dead on behalf of the 
>>>>>>living.  20. Consult God's instruction and the testimony of warning. 
>>>>>>If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of 
>>>>>>dawn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sent from my iPhone=