Hi Jim,
Thanks for using the word "disputatious". I haven't heard it before. Although the meaning seemed clear from breaking it down by its root and suffixes, I looked it up. Encarta defines disputatious as: " tending to argue or disagree without adequate cause". Dogmatic is another good word. On the other hand, the topics and objections that are being raised certainly get me thinking and discussing my questions, concerns, and thoughts on these subjects. The net effect, as I see it, is to incite thoughtful interaction on this list.
Although the dogmatic and disputatious style is a little like being poked with a sharp stick, I feel compelled to respect and appreciate the result. :-)
Best Wishes,
Ron
-----Original Message-----
From: Paleolithic Eating Support List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jim Swayze
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 11:43 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Joint pains etc.
i think the word both of you are looking for is "dogmatic." i might
throw in "disputatious." but belief in God has nothing to do with it.
Jim Swayze
www.fireholecanyon.com
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 30, 2009, at 1:29 PM, Dedy Rundle <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> Rendering fats is done VERY carefully at VERY low temperatures...
>
> and yes... I agree with Tracey...
>
> There are religious overtones in some peoples' posts but that's what
> the 'delete' key is for.
>
> Dedy
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracy Bradley" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: 30 June 2009 19:20
> Subject: Re: [PALEOFOOD] Joint pains etc.
>
>
>> Re: pemmican...
>>
>> Do you have any information that demonstrates that pemmican
>> contains toxic lipid peroxides? Has anyone tested samples of
>> pemmican and determined this? Or is this something you assume given
>> your current beliefs about cooked fats?
>>
>> And there's as many theories about cancer as there are hairs on the
>> human body. I would love a link to the study you cited. I'll trade
>> ya for a bunch that link cancer to glucose and we can call it a
>> draw. :)
>>
>> I am starting to feel like we're having a religious discussion that
>> is going around in circles and accomplishing absolutely nothing bc
>> we're both looking through totally different belief structures, if
>> you will.
>>
>> Geoffrey Purcell wrote:
>>> Re comment:- "So pemmican = Pop Tarts?"
>>>
>>> Pretty much. Pemmican is full of toxic lipid peroxides, and
>>> rendered for ages, not just merely cooked. Here's a comment (by a
>>> fellow rawpalaeo)
>>>
>>> from the summary of Holistic Cancer Therapy in "Overcoming Cancer"
>>> by Walter Last:
>>>
>>>> "Furthermore, [in cancer] there is commonly a deterioration in the
>>>> lipid (fat-related) composition of the cell walls that allows
>>>> toxins
>>>> to enter the cells, and prevents waste residue from being
>>>> removed. The
>>>> main cause of this deterioration is the habitual consumption of
>>>> heated
>>>> or oxidized fats, and a deficiency of omega-3 fatty acids as in
>>>> fish
>>>> oils and linseed oil [and, he should have added, in grassfed animal
>>>> fat]."
>>>>
>>>> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:20:10 -0400
>>>> From: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Joint pains etc.
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>> Geoffrey Purcell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Re pemmican comment:- I'm always amazed at why anyone can
>>>>> recommend pemmican. The whole point of the healthy foods
>>>>> movement is to stay well away from any preserved foods which
>>>>> last for decades, as there's a standard rule that the longer the
>>>>> shelf-life of a food , the lower its quality will always be.
>>>>> Pemmican is really no different in this regard from all those
>>>>> processed junk foods designed to last years and years on the
>>>>> supermarket shelf.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> So pemmican = Pop Tarts?
>>>>
>>>>> Re comment:- "Starvation/malnutrition also leaves telltale marks
>>>>> on the bones as well"
>>>>>
>>>>> As I showed in a recent post, there were indeed examples of
>>>>> telltale marks of starvation on palaeo bones:-
>>>>> I made that point re famine as it's commonly accepted by
>>>>> palaeoanthropologists that famine was a routine part of the
>>>>> palaeolithic era:-
>>>>>
>>>>> "Combined with a relatively low average age at death, the
>>>>> hypoplasia evidence suggests that Neandertals underwent periods
>>>>> of nutritional stress or famine on a frequent basis " taken from:-
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.pnas.org/content/98/19/10972.full
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Yes...my point was that not all paleo bones show signs of
>>>> malnutrition or starvation.
>>>>
>>>>> Re comment on AGEs:- "AGE's require glucose and oxidization.
>>>>> Many studies implicating
>>>>>
>>>>>> cooking/fried foods included high amounts of PUFA's and/or
>>>>>> other 'modern' foods including foods that break down to glucose."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> This is very misleading. AGEs do NOT just require glucose. That
>>>>> applies to only 1 type of AGE. There is also another category of
>>>>> AGEs, known as "ALEs"(="Advanced Lipoxidation Endproducts")
>>>>> which involve the oxidation of fats and don't require glucose:-
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1067029/advanced_glycation_and_lipoxidation_end_productsamplifiers_of_inflammation_the_role/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Dairy products contain lactose (sugar). Here's my overall point
>>>> re: AGE's/ALE's: do they matter in a healthy body that is not
>>>> consuming much sugar or inflammatory foods? This piece said over
>>>> half the studies have been performed on ppl either with diabetes
>>>> or renal disease. These people already have massive stuff going
>>>> on, and the association with AGE's/ALE's could be just that - an
>>>> association. This was interesting: "Experimental studies suggest
>>>> that increased deposition of AGEs/ALEs in tissues is strongly
>>>> associated with down-regulation of leptin expression in
>>>> adipocytes and metabolic syndrome." Metabolic syndrome = high
>>>> circulating insulin levels, insulin resistance, etc. Leptin down-
>>>> regulation = high triglycerides, which are a common occurence in
>>>> high-carb diets. Suddenly, we're back to glucose as a factor, if
>>>> not in their formation but in their deposition. Note I say
>>>> FACTOR. Everything works together in the body. So my interest is
>>>> if AGE's/ALE's are primarily a problem for people who have an
>>>> internal situation in which deposition of these things is
>>>> increased due to existing diet-related conditions -- and not a
>>>> problem (or perhaps much less of a problem) in people who do not.
>>>> HIgh levels are repeatedly found in ppl with chronic disease --
>>>> ok, but are they the CAUSE of the disease, or are they a factor
>>>> combined with several other factors?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Interestingly, it's been pointed out that the reason why so many
>>>>> studies (correctly) report harmful results from eating diets
>>>>> high in saturated fats may be
>>>>> primarily due, not to the issue of saturated fats per se, but to
>>>>> the fact that such diets are also very high in heat-created
>>>>> toxins, resulting
>>>>> from cooking, such as AGEs/ALEs(in other words, raw saturated
>>>>> fats are fine but not cooked saturated fats)):-
>>>>>
>>>>> "It has been suggested that, "given the prominence of this type
>>>>> of food in the
>>>>> human diet, the deleterious effects of high-(saturated)fat foods
>>>>> may be in part
>>>>> due to the high content in glycotoxins, above and beyond those
>>>>> due to oxidized
>>>>> fatty acid derivatives." The glycotoxins, as he called them, are
>>>>> more
>>>>> commonly called AGEs:-
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&artid=21074
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The control meal in this study was cooked chicken egg whites, and
>>>> the AGE meal was egg whites with fructose? Maybe I am missing
>>>> something?
>>>> Also: "Diabetic subjects were maintained on their diabetic diets,
>>>> as provided by the metabolic ward, divided into 15–20% protein
>>>> , 30–35% fat, and 45–50% carbohydrates, while breakfast carboh
>>>> ydrates were supplemented with apple juice". It appears as if
>>>> these researchers don't consider carbohydrates as particularly
>>>> important in diabetes, which is both telling and alarming.
>>>>
>>>> I do find this interesting, I just would like to see better
>>>> studies. If they aren't taking other dietary factors into
>>>> account, we're not really learning much other than that
>>>> associations exist, but that's not a whole lot to go on either.
>>>> The prevalence of focus on diabetics, for example, suggests to me
>>>> that they're searching for a cause of diabetes that doesn't
>>>> involve carbs -- in other words, that will fit with what they've
>>>> already been recommending for diabetics.
>>>>
>>>> Incidentally - I eat very lightly cooked meat ;) I like my steak
>>>> seared on the outside, raw in the middle. I prefer fish raw. Just
>>>> so you know I'm not some shoe-leather steak fan trying to justify
>>>> her love of overcooked meat. (I do cook my chicken well, though
>>>> not 1 hour broiled chicken breast like in one of the studies you
>>>> linked!)
>>>>
>>>
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