Phil, as you probably know, Heb. 6-4:6 goes along with the Hebrews 
passage you mentioned.  This is why people who believe in that view 
for the Heb. 6 passage have to admit that if a person loses his 
salvation, it cannot be regained.

earlier, virgieU, wrote:
>Phil,  A good article!
>
>Virgie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Scovell" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:35 PM
>Subject: It's My Fault, Faith I mean.
>
>
>>Here is my latest article that for sure will get me into big time trouble
>>with lots of people.  It is also long, about 8 pages, but whose counting.
>>Phil.
>>So It's My Fault Again?
>>
>>By Phil Scovell
>>
>>     Yes, I did it again!  I turned on the radio and dialed up a
>>Christian broadcast.  I couldn't help it.  It was late, about
>>midnight, I wasn't sleepy yet, and besides, it was my favorite
>>preacher's voice coming through the speaker.  His program was
>>just coming on the air so I settled back to listen to his daily 15
>>minute broadcast.  Within five minutes, I was spitting, rending my
>>clothes, and casting dust into the air.  "Why me, God?  Why do you
>>let me hear this stuff?  I don't even have my own radio or TV
>>program to expose the false teaching, Lord.  What gives?"
>>     He was preaching at a Bible conference at his own ministry
>>facilities so I have no idea how old this sermon was but it
>>couldn't be too old because he commented on his thirty years plus
>>of ministry, and I know how old he is because he is my age.
>>Plus, I have many of his tapes and I have heard him hundreds of
>>times.  Like I said, he is, still is, my favorite preacher because
>>I agree with his interpretation and application of the Scriptures
>>so often.
>>     His basic theme of the message was healing.  He was trying to
>>explain why some people don't keep, the key word here is keep,
>>their healing.  This, for me, even as a tongue talking, weirded
>>out Charismatic, has always bothered me.  I mean, everything God
>>ever has done, up until now apparently, has been permanent.  For
>>example, the creation of all things, people he raised from the
>>dead didn't lose there healing but later died natural deaths, the
>>blind never went back to being blind, Lepers stayed healed, the
>>woman with an issue of blood did not have to return for more help
>>from Jesus, the lame continued walking, Lepers remained whole, the
>>deaf kept hearing, and need I continue by listing all our Lord's
>>miracles?  So what is this Charismatic thing that you can lose
>>your healing?  Of course, the only answer that can be used is that
>>it is our fault.  Right?  I mean, we done lost our faith.  Right?
>>come on, now, you know the routine.  It doesn't sound like God to
>>me no matter how you explain it.
>>     In this message, as is the case with so many messages by
>>"Holy Spirit filled" Charismatics, if a healing doesn't work,
>>especially one in which they have prayed, laid hands on, and
>>those whom they have just chased demons out of, then your faith is
>>the problem; not theirs.  I mean, there faith is obviously working
>>and yours ain't.  Next time you are told that, ask for your money
>>back and walk out of the place because you just been lied to.  I
>>mean, somebody is short changing the true nature and character of
>>Jesus so get away from them.  Now!
>>     In this particular sermon, the preacher told the story about
>>a woman who had been miraculously healed of whatever she had.  I
>>can't recall now if it was cancer or just what but it was bad,
>>inoperable, and something she would likely die of, again, as I
>>recall the story that he told.  Regardless of what it was, it was
>>very serious; that much I remember.  However, as is the case with
>>so many who are healed, she lost it.  Dad gum it.  Can't God do
>>anything right?
>>     He said that he asked the lady what she did the next morning
>>when she realized, whatever the disease or malady was that had
>>returned, and she said, "Well, I made an appointment and went in
>>to see the doctor."  He informed her that this was her first
>>mistake, that is, she went to the doctor.  He further said that
>>she wasn't using her faith, as she once had, when she had been
>>healed and thus she lost her healing.  In other words, you are on
>>your own even if you are a born again Christian.  What happen to
>>the preacher's prayer of faith over you anyway?  Why is it all of
>>the sudden, your fault, and not his?  Where is his responsibility
>>as "A Man Of God?"  Did he lose his faith when you lost your
>>healing?  Come on!  What's up here?
>>     My personal problem with this felonious theology is that I
>>can't find any Scripture to confirm it.  When I look at Jesus, or
>>even His own disciples, I find that people got healed and it was
>>permanent.  Never once is there any record that anybody lost their
>>healing because of a lack of faith.  You will, of course, find
>>passages where Jesus said, "Your faith hath made you whole," but
>>you won't find them losing their healing later or did the Holy
>>Spirit, the author of the Bible, just leave those negative things
>>out?  He sure didn't leave out the negative things in the Old
>>Testament record.  I can also point out many places where the Holy
>>Spirit reports through the inspired writers of the New Testament,
>>the times Believers were accused of failure due to their unbelief.
>>Did you hear it?  Due to their unbelief!  The Lord's own disciples
>>of our Lord were horribly guilty of this.  (See Matthew 13:58,
>>Mark 6:6, Mark 16:14 and especially examine very carefully, the
>>story of the demon possessed son found in Matthew 17:14-21).  If
>>you are too lazy to look up the passages on your own, then skip
>>reading now and just go back to listening to the dumb butt
>>preacher who still is leading you around by the nose.  That's
>>easier than checking the bible out anyhow.
>>     These same people who believe you can lose your physical
>>"healing," normally likewise believe that one can lose their
>>salvation in exactly the same way.  This is even in spite of the
>>fact the Bible clearly states that "every man is given the
>>measure of faith," but apparently, that faith can be lost and you
>>can be lost again.  Does this mean Jesus takes that faith away or
>>just that it is our job to hold on to it so we don't lose our
>>salvation?  Which is it?  Unfortunately, if losing your salvation
>>is true, I must inform you that you can never ever be born again,
>>or saved, a second, third, or fourth time.  In short, you be up a
>>shallow creek without a boat or a paddle.  Why?  Because Hebrews
>>10:12 through 26 says the following, and read the whole lengthy
>>passage for context, please.  Why?  Because it is how you
>>interpret Scripture and thus learn to apply what you read.
>>#12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for
>>ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
>>#13  From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his
>>footstool.
>>#14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are
>>sanctified.
>>#15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after
>>that he had said before,
>>#16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those
>>days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in
>>their minds will I write them;
>>#17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
>>#18  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering
>>for sin.
>>#19  Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the
>>holiest by the blood of Jesus,
>>#20  By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us,
>>through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
>>#21  And having an high priest over the house of God;
>>#22  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of
>>faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and
>>our bodies washed with pure water.
>>#23  Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without
>>wavering; for he is faithful that promised;
>>#24  And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to
>>good works:
>>#25  Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the
>>manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the
>>more, as ye see the day approaching.
>>#26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the
>>knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for
>>sins."
>>     Let me point out what should be the obvious in this passage.
>>First, verse 12 says, "But this man, after he had offered one
>>sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God."
>>It is pretty clear to me that this verse identifies the person of
>>Jesus Christ as being our supreme sacrifice for sin.  The
>>terminology used of, "this man, after he had 'offered one
>>sacrifice' for sins 'for ever,' makes it absolutely clear that His
>>sacrifice for sin was once and for all; for ever.  "Once" and "for
>>ever" is pretty final; wouldn't you say?  Oh, I'm sorry.  I
>>forgot.  Unless, of course, you can lose your salvation.  Some
>>God.  He can't even save his own without man's help, apparently.
>>     Secondly, verse 14 repeats the absolute truth of the prior
>>theological statement by saying, #14  "For by one offering he hath
>>perfected for ever them that are sanctified."  My!  What's this?
>>How many offerings did Jesus offer?  (He is the offering, in case
>>you missed It.  It says, "For by one offering."  Just one, not two
>>or three or more.  This clearly means, if you lose your salvation
>>for being a dumb bell and not watching your step, you cannot go
>>back for seconds because only "one" offering has been given.
>>     It doesn't stop there.  The same verse says the following:
>>"he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."  Perfected?
>>What in the world is He talking about?  It can't mean really
>>perfect, can it? Yes, it literally means, in the Greek, to be made
>>perfect or complete.  If it really means perfected, you can't lose
>>it, or can you?  It sounds like perfect means perfect to me but
>>then what do I know; I just read the Bible and take it for what it
>>says in plain English and forego trying to read something else
>>into it to fit my personal theology.  Besides, if we are
>>"sanctified," since when does God remove that state of
>>sanctification once it is given?  Oh, I see.  We can lose our
>>sanctification as well?  Too bad the Greek word for "sanctify," in
>>this passage means (to be made holy, complete, purified, and
>>guiltless).  In short, there is no room to interpret
>>sanctification in terms of that which is temporarily given to some
>>one until they screw up, sin, or stop acting like a child of the
>>King.  Boy, you almost had me worried there for a second.
>>     Thirdly, and I'm sorry but it would be wise to quote all
>>three verses collectively in order to see it more clearly, this
>>passage again says:  #15  "Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a
>>witness to us: for after that he had said before,
>>#16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those
>>days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in
>>their minds will I write them;
>>#17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."
>>     The "Holy Ghost" is our witness that these things are true.
>>That's good.  So that means we cannot claim we lost the Holy
>>Spirit in the process, unless, of course, you simply don't know
>>how to read.  I suppose, if the Holy Spirit is less than God, He
>>could, in fact, stop witnessing, stop sealing our salvation, and
>>just move on to do something else but that isn't in the Bible
>>either.  Honestly.  We are having a terrible time getting away
>>from that bible stuff, aren't we?
>>     Next, in verse #16, we are flatly told, this is a covenant.
>>What?  Well, shoot, if you can lose your salvation, then a man can
>>be uncircumcised after being circumcised.  ouch!  Right?  That's
>>the covenant of God given to Abraham, whose seed we are, (See
>>Romans 4:11-13), and if you have the time, read all of Romans
>>Chapter 2 concerning who is a Jew and who is circumcised and who
>>is of faith.  That will clear up any confusion you might have.  Of
>>course, if you don't take time to read those passages, you likely
>>are still going to believe a lie.  Unless, of course, you are
>>unawares of what circumcision is physically and what it means
>>Biblically.  In that case, physically, I mean, check a good
>>medical book out of your local library.  Your Bible explains the
>>theological aspect of circumcision but then again, you'll have to
>>read it to find out about it.  If you won't do that, read your
>>Bible, I mean, you likely won't go to the library either so just
>>forget what I suggested.
>>Verse #16 continues by saying "saith the Lord, I will put my laws
>>into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them."  He,
>>Jesus, the Holy Spirit bearing witness, puts His law into our
>>hearts?"  Furthermore, He, Jesus, the Holy Spirit bearing witness,
>>writes it in our minds?"  Wow!  I guess, if one can lose their
>>salvation, God has a big huge rubber eraser some place in the
>>universe He must have to use occasionally.  No, I'm not trying to
>>be funny.  He writes it what Revelation calls "The Lamb's Book Of
>>Life,"  or just "The Book Of Life."  Get it?  "Life?"  Not death?
>>(See Revelation 3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:12, 20:15, 21:27, and 22:29).
>>That last reference is the only one I am aware of whereby one can
>>lose their eternal salvation and this is committed by adding, or
>>changing, or altering, God's Word.  So be careful.  Oh, yes.
>>Philippians 4:3 also mentioned "The Book Of Life," but if all the
>>other references don't apply, that one won't either so it is up to
>>you and what you believe, I guess.
>>     So, what in the Sam Hill are we then going to do with Hebrews
>>Chapter 12 and verse #17 that says, "their sins and iniquities
>>will I remember no more."  If you lose your salvation, you know,
>>the thing the Holy Ghost bears witness of, and comes to dwell,
>>literally, inside of our newly recreated spirit, (See 2
>>Corinthians 5:17 and John 14:14-20), which even says that Jesus
>>dwells within us, but I digress, repeating myself, what are we
>>going to have to do to explain this promise away?  You can use, of
>>course, if your agenda is to make your theology fit what you say
>>you believe, that God has a failing memory relating to salvation,
>>or some lame thing like that, but no matter what you say, you
>>can't make God remember something He says He can't remember
>>concerning your sin he has totally forgotten about.  Well, unless
>>you don't believe the Bible but I thought you claimed you were a
>>Bible Believer.  If you have further doubt, explain to me what
>>Psalm 103:12 is talking about.  "As far "as the east is from the
>>west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us."  That's
>>right; you can't explain it any other way than truthfully.  You
>>either take God at His Word or you don't.  Yes, we are getting
>>dangerously close to why people "lose their healing," so hold on a
>>minute.
>>     It is actually verse #18 that really rattles the, (you can
>>lose your salvation), or (healing), outfit.  Let me quote verse
>>#17 with it, though, so you'll get the contextual feel for the
>>full meaning and impact of the verse.  Here we go.  Strap yourself
>>in.
>>#17  "And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
>>#18  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering
>>for sin."
>>     Woe horse!  But don't stop here.  Let's jump all the way down
>>to verse #26 to finish the thought of the theology being depicted
>>within the complete text.
>>#26  "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the
>>knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for
>>sins."
>>     Bingo, Brother!  Do you see it?  No more offering for sins if
>>you lose your salvation.  Step lightly, young man, or you might
>>end up in hell even if you once were on your way to Heaven.  Man,
>>is this weird theology or what?  And people say I'm crazy.
>>     Let me say it one more time so you don't overlook it.
>>According to these verses, if you are born again, and sin
>>willfully again, you cannot ever be born again a second time
>>because Jesus cannot go back to the cross and die for you and your
>>sins all over again and then be bodily resurrected on the third
>>day.  You are done stuck going to hell period; it is final.  Yes,
>>some people believe you can get saved, born again, every day, if
>>that's what it takes, but they must be reading a different Bible.
>>In that case, run!
>>     Let me cut to the chase, therefore, and ask you this
>>question.  Is our salvation a covenant we have with God, the Holy
>>Spirit bearing witness of such, or is our salvation something we
>>can change once it is God applied?  If you can read, you already
>>know the answer.  If healing, therefore, is also a covenant
>>relationship with God, and it is, can we then lose that, too,
>>just like our salvation?  Do you see why I started with the true
>>interpretation of the doctrine of our eternal salvitic
>>relationship with God?  They go together;  they cannot be
>>separated.
>>     Yes, yes, I know.  You have one very important question to
>>ask so go ahead, right now, and get it off your chest.  I'm
>>listening.
>>     "Well, if we can't lose our salvation and we shouldn't be
>>able to lose our physical miraculous healing, what about this
>>woman who went to the doctor that the preacher talked about on the
>>radio?"
>>     Excellent question.  The woman, in this story, was told she
>>lost her healing because she lost her faith.  Sorry, Charlie.
>>Ain't in the Bible, no how.  No, she didn't stop believing either.
>>No, it wasn't a big lack of trust in God either.  "Then what was
>>it?"  In whom was this woman believing when she "received her
>>healing?"  Take a wild guess.  The preacher who told her about
>>this miracle she could have if she just believed?  You are getting
>>warmer.  In whose words did she believe, do you suppose, when she
>>"got her miraculous healing which she later lost?"  In this story,
>>the preacher, my favorite preacher, told her to go back to doing
>>what she did when she got healed.  No!  No! No!  That's what got
>>her to losing her healing in the first place.  Why in God's name
>>would you instruct her to do what she did before?  Healing isn't
>>of you or me or any hair brained theologically screwed up radio
>>preach or pastor.  Salvation, and healing, is of the Lord, stupid.
>>Come on.  In whom do you believe?  The preacher?  The pastor?  Me?
>>Some dumb Christian book called the Purple Propelled Life?
>>Promise Holders?  Some men's organization called the Advanced
>>Christian Porno Problem Solvers who meet on the internet, charging
>>thirty dollars a month for membership dues, and meets once a week?
>>Give me a break.  For crying out loud, to whom are you listening
>>to in the first place?  What happened to believing God and His
>>eternal, unchanging, eternal, Holy Word just like it reads?  I
>>swear, if the government band all Christian broadcasting
>>tomorrow, I think I'd shout, "Glory.  Back to church we go."  At
>>least then, foolish theology will only be spread by word of mouth,
>>or, God forbid, by New York Times best selling books.
>>     Let me suggest something at this point.  From now on, anybody
>>who is going to lay hands on you for a physical healing, ask them
>>if they, the key word here is they, will give you a 100 percent
>>guaranteed promise that you will, first, be healed, and second, it
>>will be permanent.  I guarantee, and promise you, that they will
>>refuse to lay hands on you for healing if you ask that question
>>first.  What if preachers and pastors suddenly started taking
>>responsibility for those with whom they pray?  What if they blamed
>>themselves for a person "losing their healing," instead of blaming
>>the person they prayed for?  Let me prove something to you right
>>here and now.
>>     Let's use this same favorite preacher of mine as an example.
>>My young son has his third degree black belt in Karate.  He is a
>>judge at tournaments, he has been an instructor at a Karate
>>school, he has trophies, a broken foot with a steel plate and six
>>screws in it, he has been hospitalized with concussions, and he
>>has, for that matter, done a little bleeding along the way, too.
>>So, during one of these healing services, following the message of
>>course, few ever get healed miraculously before the preaching, and
>>especially before the offering, what if I went forward to be
>>prayed for and healed.  I am totally blind with two artificial
>>eyes.  I can take them out to prove it.  Let's say I bring along
>>my son with the black belts in Karate.  Ok?  So far; so good.
>>Now, when the preacher comes up to lay hands on me for a for real
>>recreative miracle, you know, the ones like Jesus often did, let's
>>say that I ask him if he, the preacher, believes I am going to be
>>receiving my sight with brand new eyeballs.  You know, just like
>>the blind man in John Chapter 9 who let Jesus spit in the dirt,
>>make clay, and slap the gooey mess right in his empty eye sockets.
>>How weird is that.  Sort of like when Jesus stuck his fingers in
>>the deaf man's ears, spit and touched his tongue, of all things,
>>and the old boy started hearing.  That's in Mark Chapter 7 if you
>>are worried about what I said.  But, then, maybe he lost his
>>hearing again later.  That Jesus!  I tell you what.  Sometimes I
>>wonder if He knows what He is doing without all these preachers
>>telling Him first what to be doing and saying.  Now back to my
>>story.
>>     I already know I believe so I want to know if the preacher
>>truly believes and will stake his ministerial reputation on what
>>he says he believes and what he is about to pray.  Ok?  I mean,
>>the disciples did so why not those of us who preach and teach that
>>we know what the Bible says.  By the way, I tell the people with
>>whom I pray that I promise they will experience healing and that I
>>guarantee it will be permanent, so what's the big deal here?  No
>>guts?  No glory: personal glory?  I'm confused at your
>>reluctance.
>>     So, now.  If, by chance, I can get him to go this far, I will
>>then lift his leg so my son can, with one hand, or one foot, break
>>his leg.  Then I will ask him to show me his faith or does he wish
>>me to call an ambulance just before my son breaks his other leg.
>>"Not fair," you say?  Why not?  Faith is faith, or are you now
>>going to tell me there are degrees, or levels, of faith that work
>>only under certain situations?  Get a life and call me back when
>>you have something worth saying, or when they remove your cast.
>>For now, your teaching is not just weak, it isn't even Biblical
>>and stop asking for my offering on your radio program until you
>>teach the truth about who God really is.  While you are at it,
>>return all the money you've receive thus far from people who
>>believe you were telling them the truth, too.  Otherwise, get a
>>job.
>>
>>It Sounds Like God To Me.
>>www.SafePlaceFellowship.com
>
>
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>9/28/2008 1:30 PM

John